The Buddha a Catholic Saint...

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cavalier

so then, derision has no religion/partiality has no religion.
Can I ask what exactly you mean by that?

In that derision and partiality can be found in people everywhere, irregardless of their religion or lack thereof.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

In that derision and partiality can be found in people everywhere, irregardless of their religion or lack thereof.

ok
I would have to agree with that.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by soma

We have Christians acting like Buddhist and Buddhist acting like Christians so I guess we are all the same at least in God's eyes we are.

in the context of all fall short of the glory of god and god desires that all come to christ; however as christians, jesus christs forgives our sins when we repent to him, and provides a way to inherit the kingdom of god.

[cyberpi]

taijasi,
It looks like #5: Tak-tsey Tong-ya: Intense Encounters of the Third Degree in the Sacred Music Sacred Dance. Is that what you were referring to? Shows in the USA? Sounds like this is on CD too or is the debate a must see?

Causality: A soul can choose whether to be deterministic or stochastic by choosing where to feed back information from. Even if you saw every particle and energy pattern in my mind and body, I could still choose to be unpredictable and random. How that is done, I don't know. There is an unseen element that is not composed of the measurable world. The majority of the body is deterministic except for that part which I control. If I am wrong and my soul is also fully deterministic to God (swt), then I cease to be responsible for my actions... I cease to live. I know that I, the soul, exists because I have a choice. Without a choice, I cease to live. I know that I exist because I can, "Change my mind".

You could assert that the overwhelming power of God (swt) or the nature of this world keeps it deterministic for each soul, as if it were on a confined path. If you could both see and control every particle or energy pattern in my body then while I would not cease to exist, I would cease to have any influence on what anyone does tomorrow simply because my soul is confined. The moment I try to move a particle, it could be forced back on me. The failure with this belief is that then we no longer interact or communicate. Without interaction 99.99% of the religion I've seen is dead, including Buddhism. Enforce no communication between people and just see what lives and dies. If realization requires debate, and a Saint requires election... note that both debate and election require interaction.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

taijasi,
It looks like #5: Tak-tsey Tong-ya: Intense Encounters of the Third Degree in the Sacred Music Sacred Dance. Is that what you were referring to? Shows in the USA? Sounds like this is on CD too or is the debate a must see?

Causality: A soul can choose whether to be deterministic or stochastic by choosing where to feed back information from. Even if you saw every particle and energy pattern in my mind and body, I could still choose to be unpredictable and random. How that is done, I don't know. There is an unseen element that is not composed of the measurable world. The majority of the body is deterministic except for that part which I control. [b]If I am wrong and my soul is also fully deterministic to God (swt), then I cease to be responsible for my actions... I cease to live. I know that I, the soul, exists because I have a choice. Without a choice, I cease to live. I know that I exist because I can, "Change my mind".

You could assert that the overwhelming power of God (swt) or the nature of this world keeps it deterministic for each soul, as if it were on a confined path. If you could both see and control every particle or energy pattern in my body then while I would not cease to exist, I would cease to have any influence on what anyone does tomorrow simply because my soul is confined. The moment I try to move a particle, it could be forced back on me. The failure with this belief is that then we no longer interact or communicate. Without interaction 99.99% of the religion I've seen is dead, including Buddhism. Enforce no communication between people and just see what lives and dies. If realization requires debate, and a Saint requires election... note that both debate and election require interaction.

I would say this is an example of God's mercy, rather than God's overwhelming power. Without God's mercy in giving us the power to choose, not only would we be unable to interact, we would also be unable to love. In the Christian tradition, God is love. (1 John 4:8) If, according to the Buddhist tradition, that hate is overcome by love, then it would follow that God's mercy is more powerful than God's mightiness, and that our power of choice is God's mercy working through us, an undeserved kindness, to transform us. {How's that for causality?}
{Sorry if this is wondering off topic.}

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

It looks like #5: Tak-tsey Tong-ya: Intense Encounters of the Third Degree in the Sacred Music Sacred Dance. Is that what you were referring to? Shows in the USA? Sounds like this is on CD too or is the debate a must see?

Yes, apologies for my tangents. (Last one, I promise!) This is correct, this is the `debate,' and it's best in person, though one may be able to get some idea from a recorded track. In person, it is very lively, and it's the gestures they make, plus the wonderful expressions on their faces, which brings a certain joy to me. They are, after all, discussing the teachings of the Great One in the debate, and basically testing each other, to see how correctly & how subtly one has grasped the logic & complexities of the Dharma. Some of the attainments of the geshes are every bit as difficult (I mean as significant), or even far more so, than our Western PhD degree!

Namaskar,

andrew

[cyberpi]

Hello Seattlegal... I've lived the majority of my life in or near Seattle.

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Without God's mercy in giving us the power to choose, not only would we be unable to interact, we would also be unable to love.

I call it Faith... the Faith that God (swt) places in us. Like the mustard seed which comes from God (swt) but people choose where to plant. I agree without the Faith placed in people they would not be able to do much.

Originally Posted by seattlegal

In the Christian tradition, God is love. (1 John 4:8)

I disagree with the author of 1 John in that verse... or something was lost in translation. Maybe he meant to say God (swt) is Loving. There may be overwhelming Love from God (swt) the likes of which people don't understand, but I do not g-d our God with all my heart, soul, and mind... or g-d my neighbor as I g-d myself.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Hello Seattlegal... I've lived the majority of my life in or near Seattle.


I call it Faith... the Faith that God (swt) places in us. Like the mustard seed which comes from God (swt) but people choose where to plant. I agree without the Faith placed in people they would not be able to do much.


I disagree with the author of 1 John in that verse... or something was lost in translation. Maybe he meant to say God (swt) is Loving. There may be overwhelming Love from God (swt) the likes of which people don't understand, but I do not g-d our God with all my heart, soul, and mind... or g-d my neighbor as I g-d myself.

Well, consider it from another perspective: wouldn't it be like hell being cut off from everyone else, including God?

[Postmaster]

The question is what else has the Catholic church done? And why did they give saint hood to the Buddah with an edited version of his life story?

[arthra]

It's really a fascinating story. I've read about this many years ago and wanted to thank Postmaster for bringing it up.

There's an interesting article that explains how this legend of the Buddha made it's way into Christianity at:

http://www.answers.com/topic/saint-josaphat

Read the legend on line as it was apparently written by St. John Damascene (of Damascus) at

http://www.worldwideschool.org/libra...asaph/toc.html

- Art

[Postmaster]

Sorry Arthra but I didn't bring it up! Why is it a guy like you who reads so much stuff mistakes simple things as thread starters, thats the second time haha

[arthra]

Sorry Postmaster... just referring to your question:

"...why did they give saint hood to the Buddah with an edited version of his life story?"

Thought you'd be interested!

- Art

[arthra]

Postmaster,

Following that same site on Saint Josaphat there's a very informative site at

http://www.answers.com/topic/christi...hs-and-imagery

That may respond to your question:

"The question is what else has the Catholic church done?"

But it's not just the Catholic Church...I think at some point there was cross borrowing and use of the symbols and meanings of other religions and it still goes on today...

- Art

[Quahom1]

This has been a very interesting thread to read. However, there might be a slight mix up here, as to which Josaphat is considered the Catholic Saint.

Josaphat Koncevyc (St. Josaphat Polotsk), was born in Lithuania circ 1580, and died 1623 (martyred actually). Besides the many miracles attributed to this Archbishop, it took the church more than five years to examine the oath (witnesses' stories), and his life, yet his body remained apparently incorrupt. That failing the church re-examined Josaphat's life in 1643. He was beatified, and his cannonization occured in 1867. His feast day is on 12 November.

Also of note is the fact that while Catholics hid during the riots that killed Josaphat, it was the Jews who desperately tried to save he and his "children" of the chruch from the mobs.

As far as the Catholic Church, concerning the first story (the Christinized version of one of the legends of Buddha), Josaphat and Barlaam were brought into Roman Martyrology (feast day 27 November, 21 November), but Barlaam was canonized and not Josaphat. Barlaam died (circa 304 ACE), for failing to convert from Christianity, and lost his hand to burning coals prior to his death (for refusing to sprinkle incense over idols).

[cyberpi]

I read 'election' in Matthew 20:25-28. Does anyone else read that?

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well, consider it from another perspective: wouldn't it be like hell being cut off from everyone else, including God?

No. I think a little solitude can be peaceful sometimes. I think it would become like hell for the person or people who cuts off someone. Like for those people who cut off Jesus (pbuh). I think thats what I meant by saying, 'see what lives or dies'. On a thread discussing heaven and hell, I'd point to where Jesus (pbuh) says there are mansions in heaven... and the verses describing hell.

Understand, in no way did I say that God (swt) makes things deterministic with overwhelming power. I was saying that if a person were to assert that, then there was a reason they would be wrong. Also, I misplaced the word 'power' there... 'control' is more accurate... overwhelming control. I was describing the physics I see, devoid of virtue but favoring any theory except the 'overwhelming control'.

I thought your causality theory of undeserved kindness was interesting. It sounds attractive that God (swt) is overwhelmingly merciful... who turns down mercy? Likewise the gospel says that people are to be forgiving if they are to recieve God's forgiveness. So many people have cried for mercy for themselves, and yet justice for their enemy (self included I'm sure). However, I think Faith and Justice are just as important as Mercy. When it comes to providing service per a person's will, I think Faith is the right word. That is what I read in the gospels. By placing faith in the faithful, people cut themselves off when they reject faith, or when they cut off the faithful. So, I agree with you but with different words.