The case of Abdul Rahman

[Devadatta]

As you know, this is the Afghan man who converted to Christianity some years ago and is now under trial for his life. Even "moderate" clerics in Afghanistan, ones who opposed the Taliban, are calling for the death penalty by beheading, hanging or - if necessary - by public dismemberment.

As you might expect, all of this is fairly incomprehensible to non-muslims. So I would respectfully like to pose several questions:

1. Christians along with Jews are "people of the book" following the same monotheistic tradtion and worshipping the same God. I understand that the only problem with Christian doctrine from the Muslim point of view is that it contains certain errors as to the nature of Jesus, etc., which were later corrected in Islam. Fundamentally, Mr. Rahman is still worshipping the God of Islam, as far as I can see, so I'm a little perplexed as to why he would merit the ultimate penalty.

2. Does this duty to kill such converts appear in the Koran itself; if so, could you point me to the precise Surah?

3. On the other hand, if this duty is explicitly stated in a hadith, is this hadith universally acknowledged among all Muslims, or only among some?

4. Do you personally agree with the Afghan clerics who feel that Mr. Rahman, and others like him, should be killed?

Thanks in advance for your responses

[Aidyl Nurhadi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

As you know, this is the Afghan man who converted to Christianity some years ago and is now under trial for his life. Even "moderate" clerics in Afghanistan, ones who opposed the Taliban, are calling for the death penalty by beheading, hanging or - if necessary - by public dismemberment.

As you might expect, all of this is fairly incomprehensible to non-muslims. So I would respectfully like to pose several questions:

1. Christians along with Jews are "people of the book" following the same monotheistic tradtion and worshipping the same God. I understand that the only problem with Christian doctrine from the Muslim point of view is that it contains certain errors as to the nature of Jesus, etc., which were later corrected in Islam. Fundamentally, Mr. Rahman is still worshipping the God of Islam, as far as I can see, so I'm a little perplexed as to why he would merit the ultimate penalty.

2. Does this duty to kill such converts appear in the Koran itself; if so, could you point me to the precise Surah?

3. On the other hand, if this duty is explicitly stated in a hadith, is this hadith universally acknowledged among all Muslims, or only among some?

4. Do you personally agree with the Afghan clerics who feel that Mr. Rahman, and others like him, should be killed?

Thanks in advance for your responses

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear questioner! Thank you very much for this question that reflects deep insight and true search for knowledge. May Allah grant you success in this life and the Hereafter.


It goes without saying that, leaving Islam is the ugliest and the worst form of disbelief (kufr) in Almighty Allah. It is technically called ridda (apostasy from Islam), and someone who leaves Islam is called a murtadd (apostate).


The Qur'an makes it clear that the one who leaves Islam, hinders people from the path of Allah and then dies as such will be a loser on the Day of Judgment. His eternal abode will be Hell, where he/she will suffer severe torture and endless chastisement. Allah will not forgive him/her, nor will any of his/her good deeds be accepted from him/her. Allah Almighty says: (Lo! Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.) (Muhammad 47: 34)


Also, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: "The blood of a Muslim who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah is not lawful to shed unless he be one of three: a married adulterer, someone killed in retaliation for killing another, or someone who abandons his religion and the Muslim community.''

The prescribed punishment for a murtadd:


If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished.‏ In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.‏


No one besides the caliph or his representative may kill the apostate. If someone else kills him, the killer is disciplined (for arrogating the caliph's prerogative and encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties).


There is no blood money for killing an apostate (or any expiation). If he apostatizes from Islam and returns several times, his return to Islam, which occurs when he states the two Testifications of Faith, is accepted from him, although he is disciplined.


If a spouse in a consummated marriage apostatizes from Islam, the couple are separated for a waiting period (`iddah) consisting of three intervals between menstrual cycles. If the spouse returns to Islam before the waiting period ends, the marriage is not annulled but is considered to have continued the whole time.


(Based on 'The Reliance of the Traveler, by Ahmad Ibn Naqib Al-Misri, with some amendments.)


In addressing the issue of apostasy it is important to keep in mind the time, circumstances and the conditions that existed at the time of a particular ruling or judgment. Most modern governments do not apply Shari`ah law. However, this does not justify individuals taking it upon themselves to kill people if they apostatize from Islam. If this were to happen, such reckless action would only lead to a vicious circle of murder and homicide in which case a great deal of innocent people would be injured. As it stands presently, the means for dealing with apostasy are appropriate. Muslims should know that Almighty Allah has promised the apostate a severe punishment in this life, and an even greater punishment in the next life.

www.islamonline.net

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Allah Almighty says: (Lo! Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.) (Muhammad 47: 34)


Also, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said: "The blood of a Muslim who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah is not lawful to shed unless he be one of three: a married adulterer, someone killed in retaliation for killing another, or someone who abandons his religion and the Muslim community.''

Hey Aidyl.

As I've already noted, Christians, Jews & Muslims all worship the same God, so converting from one sub-community to the other is not a question of disbelief. Christian & Jews are already Muslims in the broadest sense because they recognize the One God and submit to His Will. So converting to Christianity is not turning away from God or from the Muslim community in its largest sense. It is only turning away from certain words, and from a certain structure of power.

But even if Christian conversion were a question of disbelief bringing punishment in the afterlife, why would God demand that such people be killed? (There's clearly no such demand in the quote you've given from the Koran.) It seems to me that a merciful God would give them every opportunity to return to the fold. Isn't eternal punishment punishment enough?

[text removed]
Sincerely,
Devadatta

[thipps]

h| Aidyl Nurhadi,
try to give references when you quote Quran and Hadith. Makes alot of things easier for the muslims in general as well as the non-muslims. The hadith you quoted... as far as I could tell was the one narrated by Abdullah in Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 83(Blood Money), Hadith #17. Hope I got it right.
jazaakallah,
thipps.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Hey Aidyl.

As I've already noted, Christians, Jews & Muslims all worship the same God, so converting from one sub-community to the other is not a question of disbelief. Christian & Jews are already Muslims in the broadest sense because they recognize the One God and submit to His Will. So converting to Christianity is not turning away from God or from the Muslim community in its largest sense. It is only turning away from certain words, and from a certain structure of power.

This is not a philosophy class where 'the broadest sense' prevails. What prevails is the Quran and Authentic Sunnah.
You say that becoming christian doesnt mean to turn away from God? Please read the Quran but if nothing, read 112:1-4. Prescribing a son to God is a lie as far as Islam is concerned. Lying about God is no small thing. Do you inform us about God what you know not?
regards,
thipps.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by thipps

This is not a philosophy class where 'the broadest sense' prevails. What prevails is the Quran and Authentic Sunnah.
You say that becoming christian doesnt mean to turn away from God? Please read the Quran but if nothing, read 112:1-4. Prescribing a son to God is a lie as far as Islam is concerned. Lying about God is no small thing. Do you inform us about God what you know not?
regards,
thipps.

Hi Thipps.

Well, yes here we have a distinct difference. For me these are indeed philosophical/theological arguments, and God – at least the way I use this term – is by definition beyond such arguments. So again, for me switching one’s monotheistic tag from “Muslim” to “Christian” cannot be construed as turning away from or insulting God.

As for the Christian creed regarding the nature of Jesus, you probably know that this was arrived at with much pain & struggle, that there were many variations, some of which were more congruent with Muslim belief and indeed continue among some Christian dissidents to this day. My personal belief is that Jesus was the son of God only in the sense we all are, but I’m not particularly bothered by the fact that many Christians believe he was the son of God in the exclusive sense. Neither belief, in my view, is an insult to God, who I take to be merciful enough to tolerate all our stuttering attempts to describe her. In any case, the idea that God would condemn sincere believers and call them “liers” simply because of some bad metaphysics is incomprensible to me.

What truly concerns, even worries me here is the fact that you’re conflating Quranic discourse, that is a set of verbal structures or conceptual system, with the actual nature of God. I recognize that for Muslims such conflation is integral to practice, just as the conflation of the New Testament and the word (logos) of God is integral to the practice of most Christians. But for me the problem arises when you step outside the field of your practice and extrapolate the verbal structures of Quranic Arabic to all times and to all peoples. Many Christians of course have a similar history of universalizing their core texts, which for me is no less troubling.

Naturally, this is only my point of view, but it seems to me all traditions, including yours, affirms the ultimate inconceivability of God. In this view, God is beyond the Vedas, the Bible, the Quran, the Granth Sahib, and every other scripture. That is not to say that these scriptures don’t have a lot to say about God, but that they are only pointers to a reality beyond all verbal construction.

I believe it’s this inappropriate extension of a conflation of words with reality that leads to such grave consequences as condemning converts to death for merely referring to the still transcendent God in slightly different terms.

Sincerely,
Devadatta

[zoser]

"THOU SHELT NOT KILL" Seems clear to me.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by zoser

"THOU SHELT NOT KILL" Seems clear to me.

Thou shall not preach judaism.
and read the hadith Aidyl quoted. its pretty clear in which 3 cases a muslim gets the death penalty.

[zoser]

I dont mean to offend anyone but thats not just judaism.

[peter_sadiq]

Abdul Rehman, of Afghanistan, is facing a threat of Death Penalty for his conversion to Christianity. BBC quoting this news writes:

Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.

It is really regretting that the distorted understanding of Islam held by the Mullahs is causing very bad impression & bad name for Islam.


In Holy Quran Allah says that “There is No compulsion in Religion”. But despite this very clear verdict, these Mullahs do not hesitate to attribute Horrible Doctrines towards Islam which are causing very bad name for Islam all around the world.


It is not just illiterate Mullahs and masses who atribute such inhuman concepts towards Islam, rather, even the most visionary and learned considered scholars (Like Maulana Maudoodi & Dr. Israr Ahmad) are presenting Islam in a manner that is not acceptable to the very nature of human. Two such aspects are "The Status of Non-Muslims in an Islamic State" and the "Death Patently for Apostates".


According to these visionary & learned scholars, anyone once is Muslim (either by birth or by conversion) if turn to any other religion then such a person must be put to Death. These Mullahs go so far that even if one declares himself/herself as Muslim but dares to differ the Mullahs in their understanding of Islam even then such person must be killed according to their interpretation of Islam


Following are few other illogical and inhuman concepts of these Mullahs (Including Maudoodi & Dr. Israr Ahmad):


1: In an Ideal Islamic State Non-Muslims will be "Second Grade Citizens".

2: They will not be allowed to preach their religion.

3: They could not attain high civil or military ranks despite their capabilities.

4: The Ideal Islamic State will offer three options to Non-Muslim world:
a) Either they become Muslim and enjoy equal status.
b) Or they surrender to Islamic State and accept to live as second grade citizens under Islamic Rule
c) If none of above is acceptable then they should be ready for invasion/war from Islamic State.


Videos {with English Sub-Titles} of Dr. Israr Ahmad, mentioning all above so-called Islamic doctrines are available at http://www.real-islam.org/audio under the Titles "Mullah’s World Order" & "A Confession of Defeat"

[kiwimac]

Regardless of Sharia law, the constitution of Afghanistan prohibits discrimination on the grounds of religion. Abdul Rahman should be released and allowed to leave Afghanistan.

As a follower of Ahura Mazda I would argue that in the Gathas, we are told to "choose the right" which implies that God has left the choice in matters of faith to us. Indeed I would go further, the God of Zarathustra, is not a God of "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not". God in Zoroastrianism does not care what you wear, what and when you eat or where and when you worship. God instead cares how righteous, progressive and good you are.

As Zarathustra says,

Hear the best with your ears
and ponder with a bright mind.
Then each man and woman, for his or her self,
select either of the [following] two.
Awaken to this Doctrine of ours
before the Great Event of Choice ushers in.

(Gathas: Song 3 - stanza 2)





Kiwimac

[kiwimac]

Originally Posted by zoser

I dont mean to offend anyone but thats not just judaism.

Zoser,

No offense is given where none is taken. I am surprised at a Muslim objecting to "Thou shalt not kill."

Kiwimac

[kiwimac]

Further to this,

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

CAIR CALLS FOR RELEASE OF AFGHAN CHRISTIAN

Islamic civil rights group says conversion a personal, not state matter

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 3/22/2006) - A prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group today called on the government of Afghanistan to release Abdul Rahman, a man facing the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity.

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) says the man's conversion is a personal matter not subject to the intervention of the state. SEE: Afghan Christian Could Face Death

In its statement, CAIR said:

"Islamic scholars say the original rulings on apostasy were similar to those for treasonous acts in legal systems worldwide and do not apply to an individual's choice of religion. Islam advocates both freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, a position supported by verses in the Quran, Islam's revealed text, such as:

1) 'If it had been the will of your Lord that all the people of the world should be believers, all the people of the earth would have believed! Would you then compel mankind against their will to believe?' (10:99)
2) '(O Prophet) proclaim: 'This is the Truth from your Lord. Now let him who will, believe in it, and him who will, deny it.'' (18:29)
3) 'If they turn away from thee (O Muhammad) they should know that We have not sent you to be their keeper. Your only duty is to convey My message.' (42:48)
4) 'Let there be no compulsion in religion.' (2:256)

"Religious decisions should be matters of personal choice, not a cause for state intervention. Faith imposed by force is not true belief, but coercion. Islam has no need to compel belief in its divine truth. As the Quran states: 'Truth stands out clear from error. Therefore, whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks.' (2:256)

"We urge the government of Afghanistan to order the immediate release of Mr. Abdul Rahman."

Before issuing its statement, CAIR consulted with members of the Fiqh Council of North America, an association of Islamic legal scholars that interprets Muslim religious law.

CAIR, America's largest Muslim civil liberties group, has 32 offices, chapters and affiliates nationwide and in Canada. Its mission is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.

- END -

CONTACT: Ibrahim Hooper, 202-488-8787 or 202-744-7726, E-Mail: ihooper@cair-net.org; Rabiah Ahmed, 202-488-8787 or 202-439-1441, E-Mail: rahmed@cair-net.org

Source: http://www.cair-net.org/

Kiwimac

[I, Brian]

Case dismissed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4848614.stm

[kiwimac]

Lets wait and see.Kiwimac