The Cross

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Killing to protect the honor of a symbol or trying reactively to defend values and a way of life?

Whatever the intent, I object to the action. God may look upon the heart, but that's not my job.

Chris

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Whatever the intent, I object to the action. God may look upon the heart, but that's not my job.

Chris

You sure?

[earl]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I think of the cross as being tied to the tree of life- it's vertical line bridges humanity and God, while it's horizontal line encompasses and embraces all in a spirit of unity.

Four points of the cross are indicative of the four seasons, four directions, four elements, and the four times of day (sunset, sunrise, noon, and midnight). They tie together these sacred aspects of nature, each of which is tied to an aspect or manifestation of divinity for me.

My own Celtic cross has at the ends of each beam a triquetra- which to me symbolizes the trinitarian concept. The trinity fundamentally points toward relationship- toward love.

The Celtic cross incorporates a circle of unity, of oneness, that was also a symbol of the sun, of light.

Finally, in the center of my particular cross, I have put the triskelion, which is three interlocking spirals. This symbolizes eternal life, and in particular (for me) a sense of reincarnation or continuity of life with change in outward form.

The cross combines so many of my beliefs. Jesus was hung on a tree, which had itself been butchered for no just or humane purpose. Jesus and Gaia, both innocent, both radiantly full of God's Light... both misunderstood, abused, mistreated, unappreciated, and often unloved. Bound to each other, providing the way to God.

The imagery is powerful to me as a follower of Christ- that a manifestation of the Divine, of Love itself, was put to death (symbolically, in a way that bound him to Nature) and yet in so doing embodied the bridge of humanity to God and remains in a state of perpetual embrace to all, forgiving us despite our cruelty.

The most interesting form of Christianity to me is Celtic Christianity which at least in its early formation seemed to meld the pre-existing Druidic viewpoints into its practice. Celtic spirituality is a beautiful thing and certainly it's no coincidence to me Kim that you're drawn to the Celtic cross as your views seem very consonant with Celtic Christianity. Perhaps you were a Celt in a previous life. earl

[Dream]

The trouble with symbols is that they have different meanings to different people, so using them is like talking in public on a cell phone. People only hear half of the conversation. Defacing a revered symbol is the essence of warfare, and so is holding up a menacing symbol. A symbol is a word which, like a pet snake, can escape from the tongue's leash and live and grow on its own.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Dream

The trouble with symbols is that they have different meanings to different people, so using them is like talking in public on a cell phone. People only hear half of the conversation. Defacing a revered symbol is the essence of warfare, and so is holding up a menacing symbol. A symbol is a word which, like a pet snake, can escape from the tongue's leash and live and grow on its own.

I agree this is what happens. The swastika is a good example. It is an ancient Hindu symbol. Once Hitler got a hold of it and perverted it, it now is associated with the most vile practices.

Swastika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you know, my interest is in Man's conscious evolution so it is easy for me to respect a sacred symbol and its connection to transcendence regardless of how it becomes perverted.. However since it is abused as a means of secular manipulation and control, the symbol becomes attacked rather than collectively admitting that the problem is us.

I am closer to the inner meanings of the Cross and it amazes me that its superficial ridicule is accepted and appreciated by the amount of people that do so.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

The idolization of symbols deserves ridicule, whether it's the image of Mohamed or the symbol of the cross. The fact that people are willing to kill to protect the honor of a symbol speaks to the need for artistic irreverence.

The rememberance of symbols keep us ever mindful of why we are to behave in certain fashion, since it is obvious we can't do it for our own sake.

Ever consider that?

[China Cat Sunflower]

So what's wrong with Piss Christ? It's a cross in a jar of golden yellow liquid. You have to attach all the bias that goes with crosses and bodily fluids to make it offensive. That's what makes it art you see- it's an object that provokes this dialog. Sheesh, if you don't understand that you might as well move to Utah or the Middle East.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

So what's wrong with Piss Christ? It's a cross in a jar of golden yellow liquid. You have to attach all the bias that goes with crosses and bodily fluids to make it offensive. That's what makes it art you see- it's an object that provokes this dialog. Sheesh, if you don't understand that you might as well move to Utah or the Middle East.

Chris

Well, I'd wait awhile until the sediment went to base, pull the cross out of the "water" left behind, leave the jar open to the atmosphere to evaporate, then take the powder at the base and spread it over the roots of a rose bush...

Amazing what "piss" can do to a rose bush.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

So what's wrong with Piss Christ? It's a cross in a jar of golden yellow liquid. You have to attach all the bias that goes with crosses and bodily fluids to make it offensive. That's what makes it art you see- it's an object that provokes this dialog. Sheesh, if you don't understand that you might as well move to Utah or the Middle East.

Chris

It's not that there is something "wrong" with it but rather it reveals us for what we are. Our egotism and its imagined self importance has become so dominant that many no longer respect sacred symbols and their value for our being. The purpose of art is now to provoke dialogue. Calling it expression devalues its importance so we prefer to call it art and devalue art instead.

What a species we've become.

[Only Special To God]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Hello Ian

I'm not sure who you are angry with but I hope it's not me. The whole idea of this thread is to suggest that the Cross is a sacred symbol that has meanings within meanings. For you when seen as a crucifix it represents the horrors of the Crucifixion. However taking it deeper the crucifixion itself provides a beneficial effect on Man's being. If Christ volunteers for this, it must have a good reason.

We have four alternatives. We can simply not care, think we already understand its depth so it is not worth pondering, seek to become open to what we don't understand, or ridicule what we don't understand.

It just surprises me that ridiculing is a close second to not caring. having respect for sacred symbols is an expression of experienced humility.

I'm not Jewish. I've had my recent friction with representatives of secular Judaism over its attitude as to non recognition of the Armenian Genocide. But these are individuals and are in no way indicative of the depth of the Star of David. So I am humbled by the symbol and sickened by those like Foxman of the ADL.

The point is that sacred symbols express the quality of understanding that leads to help for Mankind. The fact that they are so easily ridiculed is just a further indication of how little we understand and conequently how little collective hope we have for a better future.

Hello Nick,
After finishing a floor tiling task, showering, shaving and downing a couple of shots of 100 proof South Comfort, I thought that I would just try to pry open my mind and read slower as to what you have to say.

First off *extending hand to shake*, "please accept my apology. For flying off the handle. I saw a word, then another word and then I just totally lost it. I am very immature and unknowledgeable in certain areas of life. I am hoping that you will pardon my bad behavior. I am also learning to converse with people, too! I have lived somewhat of a cloistered life. Work, home and work.

I feel like a sponge by being here with everyone. I am enjoying it immensely. You can have words and there is not hitting. You can give your opinion how you feel and there is no punishment that you must face.

"THANK YOU", so much for taking the time to explain to me how I had misunderstood what you were trying to say. By you trying to help me understand has made me feel better, as I am not accustomed to that. Thank you again Nick for making time for me as it is very much appreciated!

I really hope that I don't see something like that out in public, as I would probably be arrested.

I have so much to learn. I wear my crucifix everyday, as I also pray throughout the day. It is comforting to me to not feel so alone knowing that God and Jesus are always with me.

God Bless
Ian

[Nick_A]

Hi Ian

Nothing like a good handshake to turn the page. It seems as though you've had a lot of trouble with violence. If at some point you'd like to discuss it, we could do it. I'm disturbed by what you wrote in that no one should feel intimidated for raising questions and worry about hitting. Granted you cannot be hit on the Internet but the Internet shouldn't replace healthy dialogue in real life. Perhaps the Internet can be a beginning for something better.

I'm glad you are enjoying participating. It is unfortunate that my attempt at clarification should be so out of the norm for you. It should be the norm for ALL in real life.

"Questioning makes one open, makes one sensitive, makes one humble. We don't suffer from our questions, we suffer from our answers. Most of the mischief in the world comes from people with answers, not from people with questions." Jacob Needleman

Seems like you are having trouble in real life with violent people with "answers." Here we can be free to share questions.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Only Special To God

I really hope that I don't see something like that out in public, as I would probably be arrested.

..What would JC do?

[Only Special To God]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Hi Ian

Nothing like a good handshake to turn the page. It seems as though you've had a lot of trouble with violence. If at some point you'd like to discuss it, we could do it. I'm disturbed by what you wrote in that no one should feel intimidated for raising questions and worry about hitting. Granted you cannot be hit on the Internet but the Internet shouldn't replace healthy dialogue in real life. Perhaps the Internet can be a beginning for something better.

I'm glad you are enjoying participating. It is unfortunate that my attempt at clarification should be so out of the norm for you. It should be the norm for ALL in real life.



Seems like you are having trouble in real life with violent people with "answers." Here we can be free to share questions.

Hello Nick,
Thank you again for understanding. Alot of people will not take the time or effort, to try to find out why someone had gotten upset.

Yes, I have had more than my fair share of violence, but that is in the past now. Thank you for the offer, but those are scars that I will carry for the rest of my life. I just try to not let it cloud my vision or close my heart to people. As I do know that all people are not that way, and so it would not be fair to them or to me to judge them from past experiences.

I am the one who was unfortunate, because I did not take the time to finish reading what you were speaking about. I am so sorry for my haste in reading your post. I have learned a valuable lesson from this, and you are being a good person to me.

No, the internet is not replacing healthy dialogue in real life, here in this forum, I am becoming more understanding of people, their opinions and their ideals. I am learning on how to talk with people, other than what transpires in real life...which is the general cordial oral communication of every day life.

Yes, I am learning that everyone is free to ask questions and get replies to what they think, feel and what knowledge that they have.....And I think that it is great!

Thank you again, Nick! :0}

God Bless
Ian

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Only Special To God

Hello Nick,
Thank you again for understanding. Alot of people will not take the time or effort, to try to find out why someone had gotten upset.

Yes, I have had more than my fair share of violence, but that is in the past now. Thank you for the offer, but those are scars that I will carry for the rest of my life. I just try to not let it cloud my vision or close my heart to people. As I do know that all people are not that way, and so it would not be fair to them or to me to judge them from past experiences...

Scars, will disappear with time and proper care.

v/r

Q

[Only Special To God]

Originally Posted by Alex P

..What would JC do?

I am not sure Alex! But, I do recollect a story about him tearing down a temple!

I am sorry, but I think that would be considered sacrilege, and should not be shown out in public. If someone wants to see something like that in private, that is their business. But, I would prefer not to be subjected to someones idea of art that is in bad taste. How do you explain something like that to children and or teenagers?

I feel that the cross/crucifix should be revered, not be vitiated.

God Bless, brother
Ian