The Cross

[17th Angel]

Ok so as I thought you suggest a robot cannot be a christian but, how does this tie into me saying jesus was a good example? I don't see the connection.

[mee]

A more important issue for true Christians should be the propriety of venerating the instrument used to kill Jesus.

Whether it was an upright single torture stake, a cross, an arrow, a lance, or a knife, should such an instrument be used in worship?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by mee

A more important issue for true Christians should be the propriety of venerating the instrument used to kill Jesus.

Whether it was an upright single torture stake, a cross, an arrow, a lance, or a knife, should such an instrument be used in worship?

Who cares?... It's neither here nor there....

[mee]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Who cares?... It's neither here nor there....

Suppose a loved one of yours was brutally murdered and the weapon was submitted to the court as evidence.

Would you try to gain possession of the murder weapon, take photographs of it, and print many copies for distribution?

Would you produce replicas of the weapon in various sizes?
Would you then fashion some of them into jewelry?
Or would you have these reproductions commercially manufactured and sold to friends and relatives to be venerated?


Likely you would be repulsed at the idea! Yet, these very things have been done with the cross!

[17th Angel]

lol... I love the watchtower examples lol.....

This isn't a freaking court of law... This is an act that happened two thousand years ago...

Be it a cross, a stake, a baseball bat, a bad hit of crack... Who cares? What I am meaning is slightly like your example.. Why would you want to show so much importance to it? It was just a tool of death, there is no importance in it... So why bother to try so hard to convince people it wasn't a cross it was a stake? It has no importance... There are far better things to focus on....

*knock knock* Is there anyone home?

[greymare]

isnt it a symbol that jesus died for us, and a constant reminder. (of his sacrifice)????

[17th Angel]

What's the bible say aboot symbols I wonder..

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by mee

A more important issue for true Christians should be the propriety of venerating the instrument used to kill Jesus.

Whether it was an upright single torture stake, a cross, an arrow, a lance, or a knife, should such an instrument be used in worship?

Christ killed the cross! Using the Cross in worship is an ultimate "in-your-face" statement. Christ was nailed to a cross and triumphed over the death it represents. So let's wave that triumph right in death's face (metaphorically speaking).

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by mee

Suppose a loved one of yours was brutally murdered and the weapon was submitted to the court as evidence.

Would you try to gain possession of the murder weapon, take photographs of it, and print many copies for distribution?

If HE AROSE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD? Yes, I would. And I'd wave those photos and reproductions in the faces of all who would have opposed my loved one. HA HA! Look at your worst efforts. Look at your tools of destruction. THEY AMOUNT TO NOTHING!!!

Evidently, you do not believe that Christ arose from the dead and, by death, defeated death.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by greymare

isnt it a symbol that jesus died for us, and a constant reminder. (of his sacrifice)????

With all due respect, usyally all this attitude does IMO is further misguided egotism and imaginary self importance which is what the teaching struggles against. Jesus didn't die to glorify our self importance but to allow us to experience our nothingness and profit from it with the help of the Spirit.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by mee

Suppose a loved one of yours was brutally murdered and the weapon was submitted to the court as evidence.

Would you try to gain possession of the murder weapon, take photographs of it, and print many copies for distribution?

Would you produce replicas of the weapon in various sizes?
Would you then fashion some of them into jewelry?
Or would you have these reproductions commercially manufactured and sold to friends and relatives to be venerated?


Likely you would be repulsed at the idea! Yet, these very things have been done with the cross!

Mee, why consider the cross as representative of a secular event? Consider its meaning from the beginning of time. Jesus volunteered to endure the secular cross to regain a quality of being he volntarily sacrificed. The process allowed a path to open so others could follow.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Ok so as I thought you suggest a robot cannot be a christian but, how does this tie into me saying jesus was a good example? I don't see the connection.

An example for what? Is Jesus life and death a secular example or transcendent example? A secular excample is the performance of a shell while a transcendent example radiates an inner living reality. A robot has no inner living reality.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I have to agree with you. Idolatry leads to all sorts of ridiculousness, such as this:
Video--Crucified Frog Angers Pope
Italian museum defies pope over crucified frog - Yahoo! News


How about drawing attention to people abusing people over symbols, a malignant side-effect of idolatry? Isn't that what this kind of art draws attention to? Abusing a symbol? Big deal. Abusing people? There is absolutely no honor in that.

I agree that secularism devolves the deeper sacred meanings of a sacred symbol for the purpose of manipulation and people are abused by the process. The point of the thread is to reveal the lunacy of not only this abuse but also the reactions to this abuse that attacks a symbol rather than the real problem which is defense of our collective stupidity.

The cross reveals recognition of the problem itself and the way in which Man can consciously grow in perspective leading to freedom from madness. So these "artists" and "experts" in self deception gleefully attack the symbol of human potential.

"Man is an exception, whatever else he is. If he is not the image of God, then he is a disease of the dust. If it is not true that a divine being fell, then we can only say that one of the animals went entirely off its head." Chesterton

Our collective attitudes towards sacred symbols and in this case, the Cross, indicates something wrong and perhaps Chesterton has the right idea.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by mee

Whether it was an upright single torture stake, a cross, an arrow, a lance, or a knife, should such an instrument be used in worship?

1. When the being in question overcame death and suffering, thereby showing triumph over violence and ignorance.

2. When the being in question, Himself, understood the cross as self-sacrificial. The instrument becomes a symbol of the willingness to give up self.

3. When the instrument is later discussed in scripture as a metaphor for responsibility for believers. That we can "take up our cross" and follow Christ. That we can "die to self, to live in Christ." Wearing a symbol of both death and resurrection/life reminds me to crucify my sins daily, to transform myself in the grace of the Spirit, to emulate Christ, and the promise that death will be a transformative event.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Alex P

So why bother to try so hard to convince people it wasn't a cross it was a stake? It has no importance... There are far better things to focus on....

What

Does the Cross Symbolize?

Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols in their worship of the fertility god Tammuz. The use of the cross spread into Egypt, India, Syria, and China. Then, centuries later, the Israelites adulterated their worship of Jehovah with acts of veneration to the false god Tammuz.

The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’—Ezekiel 8:13, 14.
The Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John use the Greek word stau·ros´ when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died. (Matthew 27:40; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau·ros´ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post.

so it seems that many who call them selves christians are also into idol worship.

Besides, the use of the cross in worship is no different from the use of images in worship, a practice condemned in the Bible. (Exodus 20:2-5; Deuteronomy 4:25, 26)

The apostle John accurately reflected the teachings of true Christianity when he admonished his fellow Christians with the words: "Guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:21)

This they did even when it meant facing death in the Roman arena.