The Cunning Arts....

17th Angel · 11-07-2007, 03:41 PM

I have noticed... (to my dislike) There isn't much life in the Alternative rooms... So I have picked a random subject lol and I am chucking it out far down the field... Hoping to get some movement at least......

The cunning arts! So, that is just another word for witchcraft or paganism.... Right? Wrong... There are many connections to the stereotypical titles of witchcraft and paganism... But digging deeper, which I am currently doing there is so much in this not just a religion... (I tend to see religion as a hobby) This is a way of life... The old ways.... What has made me EVEN more interested in finding out about the cunning arts is, Devon... Where I live... That was it's bread and butter... Some pretty interesting customs/folklore/just the overall culture... We even had our freaking language/dialect.... I am from Devon and never knew this... lol I must learn it.. Anyway getting distracted slightly... The cunning arts.... What do you know about it? share your thoughts perchance?

17th Angel · 11-07-2007, 05:13 PM

It's not another language.. Well kinda.. It is how I speak already lol... Ignore my Devon Language comment.....

bgruagach · 11-07-2007, 08:05 PM

I'm of the opinion that the cunning arts are the same thing as witchcraft or occult practices or folk magick or folk healing.

The specific term used tends to vary with the circumstance and the person you happen to be talking with. The practices are all of the same general type.

And just like witchcraft, and folk magick, etc. are not actually specific religions (but can be an important part of one's religion if one chooses, and ANY religion), I don't think it's accurate to describe cunning arts as a religion.

17th Angel · 11-08-2007, 12:25 PM

It can be introduced to any religion? So, Islam? Or am I not quite understanding what you meant lol...

bgruagach · 11-08-2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

It can be introduced to any religion? So, Islam? Or am I not quite understanding what you meant lol...

Magickal practices are explicitly forbidden in a number of religions, but that doesn't mean they are absent. For instance, in Christianity there are some pretty clear prohibitions in the Bible against magickal practices such as working with spirits, performing divination, etc. yet there is also a long tradition of exactly these things among devout Christians.

The cunning folk found in England since the coming of Christianity have been almost exclusively Christian. Owen Davies' book "Cunning-Folk" provides plenty of documentation regarding this. Another clearly documented set of evidence that Christians have practiced magick (despite the prohibitions in Christianity) can be found in books like "Ancient Christian Magic" edited by Marvin Meyer and Richard Smith. You also only need to look as far as the classical grimoires such as the Key of Solomon, etc. to see what working magickal systems, largely Christian, looked like.

I don't know much about Islam but I do know that there are magickal practitioners in Muslim nations too, despite any prohibitions. There was a news story just recently about a practitioner of magickal arts who was found guilty of this practice and put to death for it in Saudi Arabia. Magickal arts are not new to the Muslim world either -- back in Jesus' day they had a name for magickal practitioners in the east: Magi (the root word where we get the word "magic" and "magick".)

17th Angel · 11-08-2007, 03:20 PM

You are like a fountain, a fountain of knowledge.

17th Angel · 11-08-2007, 05:03 PM

(I am putting this here, I was going to try and make it another thread, but I doubt it would go too far...)

Bgru! I am from Devon, that's right a Devonian, now, looking back at their.... My ways of life religion and so on and so forth, christians (which is the majority here) are bascially like... Invaders.... I have no real strong faith in any sort of being what-so-freaking-ever.... BUT, I feel like I should be taking up "cunning arts" and "paganism" Simply because, that is what my people did..... I have never really looked into this as much as I have the past two days... And I feel like this is what I should be doing lol.... But, would that be right? Doing it just because my people lived that way?

bgruagach · 11-08-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

(I am putting this here, I was going to try and make it another thread, but I doubt it would go too far...)

Bgru! I am from Devon, that's right a Devonian, now, looking back at their.... My ways of life religion and so on and so forth, christians (which is the majority here) are bascially like... Invaders.... I have no real strong faith in any sort of being what-so-freaking-ever.... BUT, I feel like I should be taking up "cunning arts" and "paganism" Simply because, that is what my people did..... I have never really looked into this as much as I have the past two days... And I feel like this is what I should be doing lol.... But, would that be right? Doing it just because my people lived that way?

The history of the UK is a history of invaders. Christianity is just one of the more recent ones. Before them, it was the Romans, and the Vikings, and the Angles and the Saxons, the Celts, etc. I'm not sure if there is anything like a "native Briton" left either genetically or culturally; and it would probably be pretty difficult to figure out who they are and were!

That being said, people who are in the UK or from the UK have a lot of cultural heritage to draw on should they choose to explore it. You could easily focus on the specific area where you are from or where you live now (Devon in your case) as there is a lot of folklore that you can tap into to enrich your spiritual path. If you feel most drawn to Christianity there is no reason to give that up in order to explore your cultural and folklore heritage. If you feel most drawn to a Pagan path the option is there as well.

There are quite a few different modern Pagan paths that are around. There is Wicca, if you are interested in the teachings of Gerald Gardner and his spiritual descendants. There is Druidry, in its various modern incarnations. There is also the reconstructionist path, where practitioners research a particular cultural group and point in history and attempt to recreate that in a modern context (i.e. Celtic reconstructionists, Saxon reconstructionists, etc.) And there are also many many eclectic Pagans who do not align themselves with any specific group but work with what fits for them personally.

Any of these paths can focus on a specific cultural group or geographical location for those who are inclined that way. For instance, there are Wiccan groups that focus on one particular culture and mythology for their work. There are lots though who are more generic in their approach.

The best advice is to research, read, ask questions, and search! One good starting point for Devonshire folklore is Sarah Hewett's 1900 classic, "Nummits and Crummits." There are copies of it floating around and rumours that it will be reprinted so you should be able to track down a copy. (Libraries are excellent resources too -- there's no reason to spend money when you can borrow!) There's also a lot of material at Internet Sacred Text Archive Home that can be read online for free. (Look in the England section, as well as the section for Neopaganism/Wicca in particular.)

17th Angel · 11-09-2007, 10:23 AM

Awesome! Again you are Mr. Amazing. I have also found this Pagan federation group lol.... And they are in Devon I have asked if they have any links/references to the history/culture/ways/and so on..... *adds that site to favourites* This site is really good! Thanks.

Impqueen · 11-09-2007, 09:03 PM

I think viewing Christianity as an 'invasion' is a little unfair. There was very little blood shed after all

It was more a triumph of spin and persuasion, and in many cases 'do as your lord says' ... and he says 'Christianity's great'.

How many generations worth of your ancestors were Christian? Does their belief mean nothing, simply because Christianity came after some form of paganism? 'It's what my ancestors did' is never a good reason for doing anything. What do you want? What do you feel? ... Seeking wisdom in the past is fine, but just because it's from the past doesn't make it wisdom.

Quote:

I have no real strong faith in any sort of being what-so-freaking-ever....

I know agnostic pagans... and it's certainly possible to be an atheist witch (i.e atheist user of witchcraft as opposed to atheist Wiccan, that wouldn't work). One can view the gods as symbolic constructs which are invoked in order to stimulate some aspect of the self ...

bgruagach · 11-09-2007, 09:39 PM

When you get to the point of wanting to connect with people in your area who are practicing Pagan and/or magickal spiritual paths, be sure to look through Witches' Voice - 09 November, 2007 - 3:39:14 PM They have listings for individuals, groups, stores, classes, etc. for everywhere in the world. Listings are free and are regularly checked, with "dead links" deleted from the listings.

They also post a lot of user-submitted essays on all sorts of topics. While not necessarily authoritative, they do give a good overview of the diversity of the modern Pagan community.

And regarding Impqueen's comments about how Christianity came to the UK -- I think some might disagree that it was a bloodless coup. For instance, the history of England has a lot of blood spilled just over competing factions of Christians (Catholic v Protestant), then there's the witch hunts (the name Matthew Hopkins is infamous in that regard for sending people who were accused of being non-Christian to their deaths), and then there is the whole noticeable gap in the Druid religion which I don't think can be honestly attributed to a willing conversion.

17th Angel · 11-13-2007, 09:58 AM

I posted quite a long{for me that is} post yesterday It has magically vanished along with all my other posts.... When I grow enough effort I will try to remember what I typed and re post... For now I can't be bothered... heh.

Impqueen · 11-15-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgruagach

And regarding Impqueen's comments about how Christianity came to the UK -- I think some might disagree that it was a bloodless coup. For instance, the history of England has a lot of blood spilled just over competing factions of Christians (Catholic v Protestant), then there's the witch hunts (the name Matthew Hopkins is infamous in that regard for sending people who were accused of being non-Christian to their deaths), and then there is the whole noticeable gap in the Druid religion which I don't think can be honestly attributed to a willing conversion.

The Catholic vs Protestant problems came a long time after the UK was converted to Christianity. I thought the witch hunts sent those accused of being witches or devil worshippers (i.e Christian heretics) to their deaths, they weren't accused of worshipping Thor, for example. So again it's not a problem with the conversion of England but a problem arising within the already Christian country. As for the Druids; they may or may not have been forcibly converted but as no record from their side of the story survives, we can't really know. Assuming that a lack of records means they were forcibly converted is something of a leap, especially as they don't seem to have been big on recording things anyway.

bgruagach · 11-15-2007, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Impqueen

The Catholic vs Protestant problems came a long time after the UK was converted to Christianity.

Does it really matter when they happened? The point was that Christianity brought plenty of bloodshed with it. The conversion of Britain to Christianity, regardless which sect you look at, seems to have involved bloodshed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I thought the witch hunts sent those accused of being witches or devil worshippers (i.e Christian heretics) to their deaths, they weren't accused of worshipping Thor, for example.

Actually, the worship of other gods was one of the primary theological justifications for the inquisition; there's an essay on the topic at this webpage that discusses it. (Note the section "Theological foundations for the Inquisition" in particular.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Impqueen

So again it's not a problem with the conversion of England but a problem arising within the already Christian country. As for the Druids; they may or may not have been forcibly converted but as no record from their side of the story survives, we can't really know. Assuming that a lack of records means they were forcibly converted is something of a leap, especially as they don't seem to have been big on recording things anyway.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We do know that the Druids did not commit their teachings to writing and have to rely on the writings of (rarely ever sympathetic) outsiders for the bits and pieces that we do know about them. When the Romans invaded Britain they saw the Druids as their main opponents and were therefore determined to eliminate them. The Romans made a point of destroying Druid holy sites and passed laws to outlaw Druid religion in the lands they controlled.

Druids were not the only religious group that suffered at the hands of the Christians who would insist that theirs was the "one true way" -- there is a history of how Jews have been forcibly converted (or worse) at sites like this one. Conversion to Christianity was hardly a gentle process across Europe let alone in the British Isles.

Bruce Michael · 11-15-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I think viewing Christianity as an 'invasion' is a little unfair. There was very little blood shed after all

It was more a triumph of spin and persuasion, and in many cases 'do as your lord says' ... and he says 'Christianity's great'.

You are quite correct Impqueen. If they were invading, where did they come from?

Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion, but it didn't spread from the Middle East to Europe.

Christianity came to Europe via Ireland and the Irish missionaries. Places like Iona hold special significance.

I once saw a TV program that expounded upon the idea that, early on, Christian refugees from Syria landed in Ireland. It gave proofs of place names and street names- and also racial identity. It would be interesting to see today, with DNA testing, whether this is true.

Blessing,
Br.Bruce