The Danish newspapers

dailogue is the best · 02-15-2008, 11:55 PM

Recently, seventeen Dutch newspapers have published caricatures about the prophet Muhammed(pbuh), characterizing him as a terrorist....

I m not against the freedom of speech.The prophet Muhammed (pbuh) himself said that the best Jihad is to say a word of truth in the presence of unjust ruler.But, what is freedom of speach first? is freedom of speech to say whatever you like ,and however you like it? is freedom of speech is to tell lies and spread prejudices?

I m with the freedom of speech, but Im not with the freedom of deforming the truth...

I m with the freedom of speech, but I m not with the freedom of lying...

I m with the freedom of speech, but I m not with the freedom of insulting....

I m with the freedom of speech, but I m not with the freedom of hatred spreading....

I m with the freedom of speech, but I m not with the freedom of ignorant talking.....

Oh! those who accuse my dear prophet of terrorism, read,read,and read....and then, I will happily give you the freedom of speech....but, with this horrible amount of ignorance and hatred, you arent yourself free.....

Free yourself by learning, and then you can enjoy all kinds of freedom you want....and what is freedom but to break the fetters and chains of ignorance....

How bad ignorance is, and how bad hatred is....

islamis4u · 02-16-2008, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Recently, seventeen Dutch newspapers have published caricatures about the prophet Muhammed(pbuh), characterizing him as a terrorist....

I m not against the freedom of speech.The prophet Muhammed (pbuh) himself said that the best Jihad is to say a word of truth in the presence of unjust ruler.But, what is freedom of speach first? is freedom of speech to say whatever you like ,and however you like it? is freedom of speech is to tell lies and spread prejudices?

I m with the freedom of speech, but Im not with the freedom of deforming the truth...

I m with the freedom of speech, but I m not with the freedom of lying...

I m with the freedom of speech, but I m not with the freedom of insulting....

I m with the freedom of speech, but I m not with the freedom of hatred spreading....

I m with the freedom of speech, but I m not with the freedom of ignorant talking.....

Oh! those who accuse my dear prophet of terrorism, read,read,and read....and then, I will happily give you the freedom of speech....but, with this horrible amount of ignorance and hatred, you arent yourself free.....

Free yourself by learning, and then you can enjoy all kinds of freedom you want....and what is freedom but to break the fetters and chains of ignorance....

How bad ignorance is, and how bad hatred is....

I agree with you totally sister on the name of freedom of speech people just full fill their bad intent and just say so much bad that it can not be digested easily their should be some limits of freedom of speech!!

Nouzbillah if i say any thing about Jesus(PBUH) is that will be called as freedom of speech???? I would never say that because i have respect of freedom of speech rather i will talk with logic!!!

dailogue is the best · 02-16-2008, 03:35 PM

Sorry for writing "Dutch", in fact I meant "Danish".....I v mixed up between the two words

...I dont know how to edit it...

Anyway, a Dutch director is intending to release a movie about the prophet Muhamed(pbuh), giving him a character of a terrorist......

let them seed hatred, and let them reap its fruits....

What really aches my heart is that they dont know....if they know, they will drown in the sea of their regret's tears....

How bad ignorance is, and how bad hatred is.....

17th Angel · 02-16-2008, 03:43 PM

I honestly think you should rise above it.... Why should you allow others to bring you down? Peace be upon Muhammad, but they are only mere scrawlings...... If such little can raise anger in me.... What am I capable of?

seattlegal · 02-16-2008, 03:55 PM

I'm all for freedom of speech, paired with self-control. {Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit in the Christian tradition. (See Galatians 5:22-23)}

Limiting freedom of speech and freedom of expression via the law (from man) hinders the development of the Spiritual fruit of self-control (from God) imo. The law provides a temporary change of behavior only while it is enforced, and is not lasting. The Spiritual fruit of self-control, on the other hand, transformative process from God, with effects that last--they are not dependent upon constant, harsh enforcement from the law.

By the way, if you get upset about the caricatures about Mohamed, just look and see all of the caricatures of Jesus that are out there. You are by no means alone and isolated in this respect.

Tao_Equus · 02-16-2008, 04:08 PM

DIB,

Evidently you have no concept of what constitutes freedom of speech. This is an old story, I presume you know that, which last week made the headlines again with the conviction of 3 Islamic nutters who were plotting to kill, and permanently deny freedom of expression, the artist responsible for the "most offensive" cartoons. So I put it to you, where is your thread congratulating the Danish Police and Justice authorities on preventing the blackening the name of Islam by stopping these radicalised fools from committing murder in its name? Or do you think they were justified to try and kill the artist?

Islam is probably the greatest source known to mankind of the stifling of freedom of speech. It routinely proclaims fatwas on anyone percieved as critical or mocking. Recently going as far as to jail a schoolteacher for innocently allowing her pupils to name a teddy bear Muhammad. In the case of the artist it is a fact that his target audience were sympathetic to his point and he lives, works and published the cartoon in Denmark, not an Islamic state. You clearly do not understand the concept of freedom of expression. It has no bounds until it physically threatens anyone. Even the most strident fascist, (which is what fundamentalist extremist Islamists are), has the right to print, say and publish whatever they want up until the point it calls for physical violence.

You use the name Dialogue is Best, but clearly you are unprepared for a dialogue you dont, because of your own prejudice toward Islam, think meets your definition of respectful. You cannot have dialogue with such preconceptions.

Tao

dailogue is the best · 02-16-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islamis4u

I agree with you totally sister on the name of freedom of speech people just full fill their bad intent and just say so much bad that it can not be digested easily their should be some limits of freedom of speech!!

Nouzbillah if i say any thing about Jesus(PBUH) is that will be called as freedom of speech???? I would never say that because i have respect of freedom of speech rather i will talk with logic!!!

salam, brother

yes, brother...I think freedom of expression and speech should be linked with truth, and telling truth should be linked to good morals....oh! dear Jesus (pbuy), if you could only see what some of those who claim adhering to your teachings are doing...

Saltmeister · 02-16-2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Even the most strident fascist, (which is what fundamentalist extremist Islamists are), has the right to print, say and publish whatever they want up until the point it calls for physical violence.

Well, I just thought I might add, there is bit more to it than that (an extra technicality). It doesn't necessarily have to get to physical violence. I think it's enough to incite religious or ideological hatred.

But....anyhow you probably already knew that. I just felt itchy that you said "physical violence" instead of "incitement religious or ideological hatred" and decided to scratch it and set things upright.

Remember Catch the Fire Ministries? A pastor in Australia depicted Muslims as demons and devils. That was against the law here. The Danish cartoons weren't against the law because they didn't incite hatred. It was just some innocent humour. Innocent in the sense that it was perhaps quite naive.....

So there you are, islamis4u, a law that protects Muslims against Christian fundamentalism. Preserving civilisation. .....and it's often hard to have civilisation without laws. That's one of the Noahide commandments.....founding of courts and laws. The Western world isn't really as anti-Muslim as you might think. With laws like these, Muslims in Western countries have a reason to feel a little safer.

There will still be problems, with people being suspicious of Muslims, but it's all part of a process......

But back to the Danish cartoons. I think I have two things to say here. I agree in principle that people in Western society should be free to express themselves and engage in so-called "innocent humour." What I don't agree with is the politicians saying to Muslims around the world, "We're going to stick to our democratic values. You guys have no right to tell us what to do. We can do whatever we like. It's our right to do it and we do it because we can." I think it's much better if the politicians didn't talk so much of upholding democracy in this context. I think this is a place where it's inappropriate to be singing praises about it because you're offending another culture. It sounds arrogant to those in the Middle-East, that those in the West will flaunt their "we do it because we can" attitude without any respect for the Muslims that are flaring up in anger.

It's just like when the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad visited a university in the U.S., and said "there are no homosexuals in our country; we don't have this phenomenon in Iran." U.S. President George W. Bush responds with, "this is an indication of the greatness of America."

No, it is not about America's greatness. This was an opportunity for someone to get an understanding of a secular-based, democratic political system. The U.S. President George W. Bush should not have been talking about America's greatness. What he said was arrogant, haughty and disrespectful.

When the students at the university laughed at the Iranian President for his comments on homosexuals, even those Iranians who opposed the hardliners defended their President. They said the Americans were rude and disrespectful, and that if George W. Bush were to visit an Iranian university, they would be far more polite. This was an indication of the arrogance, not the greatness of America.

Having a more peaceful and stable political system is not a license for being rude, disrespectful or arrogant towards cultures that live under less stable or peaceful political systems. What virtue is there in people who live under a peaceful political system, but don't exercise courtesy?

People in Iran would say, what a rude, disrespectful country. Whenever Iranians meet an American, what do you think they will say? Look here's a guy who comes from the rude country. Is this the greatness of America? To laugh at Iran's President and say, this is the greatness of America? No this is the rudeness and stupidity of America, they will say. Americans don't have any brains. Look at what their president said. Their president doesn't have any brains. The people voted for him. So the people don't have brains either. What a brainless country.

It's understandable that some people might be shocked when the Iranian President says something that shows his ignorance of homosexuals, but it doesn't mean that you laugh about it. What's so funny? It just isn't funny. What does that do to break down cultural barriers?

cyberpi · 02-16-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

I m not against the freedom of speech.The prophet Muhammed (pbuh) himself said that the best Jihad is to say a word of truth in the presence of unjust ruler.But, what is freedom of speach first? is freedom of speech to say whatever you like ,and however you like it? is freedom of speech is to tell lies and spread prejudices?

How will you say a just word, if you will not first hear an unjust word, from an allegedly unjust ruler?

You believe that Allah (swt) hears your prayers, yes? Does Allah (swt) remove your freedom when you speak an unjust word? If the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) were before you today, would he remove your freedom when you speak an unjust word?

Those who speak against freedom of speech, of all manner, in my opinion are being unjust, and are inciting hatred. Is that not the truth? Those who do censor, do hate.

dailogue is the best · 02-16-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I honestly think you should rise above it.... Why should you allow others to bring you down? Peace be upon Muhammad, but they are only mere scrawlings...... If such little can raise anger in me.... What am I capable of?

Thank you for your sincere advice, brother...I v really raised above it...I just want to say that freedom of expression should be limited to truth, not to lies and prejudices...

China Cat Sunflower · 02-16-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

I just want to say that freedom of expression should be limited to truth, not to lies and prejudices...

Not only did the Danish cartoons express an uncomfortable truth, but the reaction to them proved the point. Have you seen the bumper stickers and tee shirts that ask "who would Jesus bomb?", or the ones depicting Jesus with an AK 47? It's not an attack on Jesus. Obviously Jesus wouldn't bomb anyone. But his followers sure will! Same point being made about your dude. The cartoons don't disrespect the man, you all do.

Chris

dailogue is the best · 02-17-2008, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I'm all for freedom of speech, paired with self-control. {Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit in the Christian tradition. (See Galatians 5:22-23)}

Limiting freedom of speech and freedom of expression via the law (from man) hinders the development of the Spiritual fruit of self-control (from God) imo. The law provides a temporary change of behavior only while it is enforced, and is not lasting. The Spiritual fruit of self-control, on the other hand, transformative process from God, with effects that last--they are not dependent upon constant, harsh enforcement from the law.

By the way, if you get upset about the caricatures about Mohamed, just look and see all of the caricatures of Jesus that are out there. You are by no means alone and isolated in this respect.

Thank you, seattlegal for your nice,comforting words....

I read the article, and I honestly admire it....it's a shared knowlege between us....in Islam, the two conflicting forces are the commanding soul and the peaceful soul....It is one soul, actually...but, it has dgrees....when a person can get to the peaceful soul, then he/she begins taking his/her way towards connecting with the Spirit, and enjoy the blessed peace of being with God....

I fully understand what you meant by not allowing any person to interfere in others' right to express themselves freely...I admire how you look at the subject....but, what if some people cant control themselves? I know that if they learn how to control themselves, we in fact gain a lot...life will be paradise, then seattlegal......

Your last words conveyed your nice feelings, seattlegal...But, dont think that it relieves my heart when I hear that they "caricatonized" the prophet Jesus(pbuh)....He is a dear prophet, too...he, and Moses and all the prophets(peace be upon them all).....Who should we respect, if we dont show respect to those who brought light to our lives?

cyberpi · 02-17-2008, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Who should we respect, if we dont show respect to those who brought light to our lives?

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, "Verily I say unto you in as much as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me."
...
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, "Verily I say unto you, In as much as you did it NOT to one of the least of these, you did it NOT to me."

dailogue is the best · 02-17-2008, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

DIB,

Evidently you have no concept of what constitutes freedom of speech. This is an old story, I presume you know that, which last week made the headlines again with the conviction of 3 Islamic nutters who were plotting to kill, and permanently deny freedom of expression, the artist responsible for the "most offensive" cartoons. So I put it to you, where is your thread congratulating the Danish Police and Justice authorities on preventing the blackening the name of Islam by stopping these radicalised fools from committing murder in its name? Or do you think they were justified to try and kill the artist?

Islam is probably the greatest source known to mankind of the stifling of freedom of speech. It routinely proclaims fatwas on anyone percieved as critical or mocking. Recently going as far as to jail a schoolteacher for innocently allowing her pupils to name a teddy bear Muhammad. In the case of the artist it is a fact that his target audience were sympathetic to his point and he lives, works and published the cartoon in Denmark, not an Islamic state. You clearly do not understand the concept of freedom of expression. It has no bounds until it physically threatens anyone. Even the most strident fascist, (which is what fundamentalist extremist Islamists are), has the right to print, say and publish whatever they want up until the point it calls for physical violence.

You use the name Dialogue is Best, but clearly you are unprepared for a dialogue you dont, because of your own prejudice toward Islam, think meets your definition of respectful. You cannot have dialogue with such preconceptions.

Tao

salam Tao

As the prophet Muhamed(pbuh) started spreading God's message, the pagan Arab started persecuting him either phsically or verbally...they described him as a poet, mad man , and a sorcerer...the prophet didnt reply on them..he ignored them, focusing on his duty....

Muhamed in Arabic means praised..I will tell you a story about how the prophet Muhamed(pbuh) used to deal with the pagan's criticism...one day,Aicha, the prophet Muhamed's wife heared the pagan, saying loudly:he is not "Muhamed",he is "modamam".("modamam" in Arabic is the antonym of "Muhamed", and it means vilified)...the prophet's wife got very angry,while the prophet Muhamed kept calm, and smilingly said to his wife: they said "modamam"(vilified), and I m Muhamed...(that's to say, I m not meant by their speech....he simply ignored the ignorant)...

Of course, I dont justify the actions of those who tried to kill the artist,( though I fully understand how they are feeling).....God says:"
[7:199] You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant."

concerning your saying about Islam's limitations of freedom of expression, I think here we witness what is called cultural shock....when someone of different culture comes into contact with another culture for the first time, he/she gets shocked because the criteria for measuring and looking at things are different.....

In Islam, we are taught how to respect all the prophets because of their high status to God...we are taught to say ( peace be upon him) after the mentioning of the name of any prophet...It gets to the degree that we cant humanize prophets in our movies and films...we use just light to indicate their presence...because of our great respect to them...and because we believe that no one can embody the light nature and the charming beauty of the prophets....in Islam,we are taught to respect everybody, even those we differ with....unless, the other one start insulting us, we have the right to defend ourselves, and in many cases in the Quran, we find God encouraging us to tolerate and forgive..God says:"Allah does not love the loud (expression) of odious words except for him who has been done an injustice, and Allah has been Ever-Hearing, Ever-Knowing. (149) In case you display a charitable (deed), or conceal it, or be clement towards an odious deed, then surely Allah has been Ever-Clement, Ever-Determiner. (4:148-149)

In the case of the schoolteacher, she was a victim of cultural shock....she has to respect how these people believe, and how they look at things....anyway, sending her to jail is somthing I dont accord with..(by the way, Tao, in order to avoid falling a victim of a cultural shock, is it normal and does it cause no problem if you name your pets a name of a dear person to you like mother, father, and the like,,,,I would like to know because I have no idea how you regard the subject)....

you said I m not prepared for dialogue.....and you found me,wondering: who isnt unprepared for dialogue...me, who is asking and wondering and looking for truth, or the artist who ignorantly thinks he has obtained the whole knowledge, and is presenting its fruits to everybody....who isnt unprepared for dialogue: we who respect all the prophets and love them, or the one who mocked the prophet of one of the most widespread religions all over the world... I think,he, and those who support him, arent only unprepared for dialogue...they are actually shutting the door of it in our faces in a very bold way...

dailogue is the best · 02-17-2008, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Well, I just thought I might add, there is bit more to it than that (an extra technicality). It doesn't necessarily have to get to physical violence. I think it's enough to incite religious or ideological hatred.

But....anyhow you probably already knew that. I just felt itchy that you said "physical violence" instead of "incitement religious or ideological hatred" and decided to scratch it and set things upright.

Remember Catch the Fire Ministries? A pastor in Australia depicted Muslims as demons and devils. That was against the law here. The Danish cartoons weren't against the law because they didn't incite hatred. It was just some innocent humour. Innocent in the sense that it was perhaps quite naive.....

So there you are, islamis4u, a law that protects Muslims against Christian fundamentalism. Preserving civilisation. .....and it's often hard to have civilisation without laws. That's one of the Noahide commandments.....founding of courts and laws. The Western world isn't really as anti-Muslim as you might think. With laws like these, Muslims in Western countries have a reason to feel a little safer.

There will still be problems, with people being suspicious of Muslims, but it's all part of a process......

But back to the Danish cartoons. I think I have two things to say here. I agree in principle that people in Western society should be free to express themselves and engage in so-called "innocent humour." What I don't agree with is the politicians saying to Muslims around the world, "We're going to stick to our democratic values. You guys have no right to tell us what to do. We can do whatever we like. It's our right to do it and we do it because we can." I think it's much better if the politicians didn't talk so much of upholding democracy in this context. I think this is a place where it's inappropriate to be singing praises about it because you're offending another culture. It sounds arrogant to those in the Middle-East, that those in the West will flaunt their "we do it because we can" attitude without any respect for the Muslims that are flaring up in anger.

It's just like when the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad visited a university in the U.S., and said "there are no homosexuals in our country; we don't have this phenomenon in Iran." U.S. President George W. Bush responds with, "this is an indication of the greatness of America."

No, it is not about America's greatness. This was an opportunity for someone to get an understanding of a secular-based, democratic political system. The U.S. President George W. Bush should not have been talking about America's greatness. What he said was arrogant, haughty and disrespectful.

When the students at the university laughed at the Iranian President for his comments on homosexuals, even those Iranians who opposed the hardliners defended their President. They said the Americans were rude and disrespectful, and that if George W. Bush were to visit an Iranian university, they would be far more polite. This was an indication of the arrogance, not the greatness of America.

Having a more peaceful and stable political system is not a license for being rude, disrespectful or arrogant towards cultures that live under less stable or peaceful political systems. What virtue is there in people who live under a peaceful political system, but don't exercise courtesy?

People in Iran would say, what a rude, disrespectful country. Whenever Iranians meet an American, what do you think they will say? Look here's a guy who comes from the rude country. Is this the greatness of America? To laugh at Iran's President and say, this is the greatness of America? No this is the rudeness and stupidity of America, they will say. Americans don't have any brains. Look at what their president said. Their president doesn't have any brains. The people voted for him. So the people don't have brains either. What a brainless country.

It's understandable that some people might be shocked when the Iranian President says something that shows his ignorance of homosexuals, but it doesn't mean that you laugh about it. What's so funny? It just isn't funny. What does that do to break down cultural barriers?

Hello, Saltmeister

I really appreciate your post....It said a lot of what I wanted to say.....We are of different cultures....we have to respect how each culture looks at life, and things around....we have to dialogue in order to understand each other,and not to attack....Actually, we cannot take a palm tree from the south of Morocco, and seed it in Moscow. can we?.....

Concerning the American policy, I would like to say what makes the world so terrible but the superiority complex of the American politicians....what makes the world a hell, but the contempting look at people are considered primitive, inferior and uncivilized....(in fact, this is another deep subject that needs thousand of volumes to depict it)

Any way, brother., I greatly value your wise point of view, and your sympathetic understanding of others' feelings...May God bless you...

At last, love breeds love, hatred breeds hatred, and violence breeds violence...

salamo alaykom