The Death Burial and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus -Palm Sunday & Easter

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Dear Bass, Bandit, Juan, Everyone,

I was not trying to start a debate about the days, just trying to find a way to honor God and enjoy fellowship with you all. As I said the timeline came out of my Bible and I'm not worried at all about whether it is literal-factually correct. However, following it as I posted would put us in synch with the majority of the members of the Body, which is meaningful to me.

However you decide is fine with me.


peace,
lunamoth

I know Lunamoth. However one decides is fine with me too. it is not something I want to debate either. I think the scriptures turned out the way they did on purpose to keep us coming back to them. Good soul food .

Our church still passes out palm leaves on Palm Sunday and we make a pass through the isles of the temple with the branches at the beginning of service singing. Then the children get the branches at the end of the service and they take the lead passing through the temple singing. It is really a neat service.

Does anyone else still wave the palm branches?

[Basstian]

I think every one will agree with that Luna

The important thing is the tomb is empty and the stone rolled away.

If anyone waved palm branches in my neck of the woods they would be plastic. LOL

[Bandit]

I am starting to see something different about this guys. Check out this site and let me know what you think. What I am seeing is there may have been one of the two lambs eaten the same night of the last supper. For some reason I still see it as preparation and everything still falls into proper timing considering the way they viewed the hours then.
(sundown on thursday would actually be friday) see?

this certainly does not have to be a debate at all, but there is no reason why we cant fellowship and discuss it like brothers. That would be a real blessing.


http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q060.htm

"The Passover" could refer to at least four things: (1) it could refer to the two chagigah lambs which were slaughtered and eaten, one on the evening of 15 Nisan, during the Passover seder, and one on the following day of 15 Nisan (Jews at the time reckoned the day as beginning at sundown, so the evening of the day preceded the morning of the day), (2) it could refer to the Passover meal itself, (3) it could refer to the day on which the Passover meal was eaten, and (4) it could refer to the eight day festal cycle including both Passover day and the following seven day feast of Unleavened Bread. We see this latter usage in the gospels themselves. Luke 22:1 tells us: "Now the feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover."

[Basstian]

I used our modern days and the midnight to midnight just to make it easy to understand.

But yes it seems Jesus was crucified on the the 4th day of the week and in- tombed buy the beginning of the 5th day (Our thursday evening/Jewish beginning of Friday) calling that period the first night in the grave.

I think it is awesome that the passover was fullfilled even in the grave the rest of the sabbath the presenting Himself in Jerusalem as was required by the statutes of the time.
In other words the creation of our salvation was completed in the same way as the creation of the world. With sunday the 1st day beginning a new week and a new beginning for us as believers.

The only reason I had brought this up is because so many details and things that had been symbolic in times past where in this one week fufilled in the flesh. These little details show a God that doesnt change. The God that lead the children of Isreal out of Egypt is the same God that raised our Saviour from the dead. Every part was very important and every detail a blessing to know the truth of.

[lunamoth]

Just looking for a place to share these words of comfort:

I made you and I will carry you;
I will sustain you and I will rescue you.

(Isaiah 46:4b, NIV)

Looking forward to tomorrow's discussion about the fig tree and Jesus at the Temple:

The Fig Tree Withers
18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.

21Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

(Matthew 21:18-21)

lunamoth

[Bandit]

i have to say Luna, I have never fully understood the fig tree being cursed unless it is about saints who do not bare fruit, but then Jesus turns around and teaches about faith and not doubting. so there is something there about not baring fruit, this curse and faith that i cannot say i fully understand.

my avacodo tree in florida was huge and it only put off one avacado in 7 years .


but...i will say this

if jesus said it i believe it, his word cannot lie
if it's written in the bible, I'll believe it til i die
tho the mountains be removed and cast into the sea
Gods word will stand forever throughout eternity.

[lunamoth]

Well, it has been interesting and illuminating to think about the fig tree episode. I’ll share my exegesis, not that it’s worth anything to anyone else! So, starting again with Matthew’s version of the withering of the fig tree, which in Matthew is in between the stories of Jesus overturning tables at the Temple and having His authority questioned by the chief priests and elders :

The Fig Tree Withers
18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
(Matthew 21:18-21)

So, my first response to this story is that is a metaphor of judgment. My NIV Study bible agrees with this. Because of this it is linked in my mind to the parable of the sheep and the goats later in Matthew 25:

The Sheep and the Goats
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:31-46)

It was interesting to me that when I read this passage I noticed that it also starts with Jesus coming (in glory) so it further suggests that the fig tree parable is about judgment day. So, in that light I’m thinking to myself, “Yikes!” In Matthew the tree withers immediately. Before moving on I also note another similarity between the fig tree and the sheep and goats stories: they both refer to what might be called good works. Why did Jesus smite the fig tree? Because it did not bear fruit. He was hungry and the fig tree did not feed Him. And what did the sheep do to be put at God’s right hand? They fed, gave drink to, gave hospitality to, clothed, healed and visited Jesus (the least of these brothers).

In Mark the parable of the fig is broken into two parts surrounding the cleansing of the temple:

Jesus Clears the Temple
12The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
15On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: “ ‘My house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations’[c]? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’[d]”
18The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.
19When evening came, they[e] went out of the city.
The Withered Fig Tree
20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”
22“Have[f] faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23“I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”[g] (Mark 11: 12-25)

Now this gets more interesting in two ways. First, the fig tree has leaves out of season and second more time passes between the curse and the withering. And, the tree withers from the roots as if it were cut off from below where it is planted in the dirt, rather than deprived from above (sun and rain). I’m not sure what to make of the tree having leaves out of season, it almost seems unfair of Jesus to curse it for not having fruit when it’s not even supposed to have leaves. But the whole day passes before the tree is discovered withered, so it suggests to me that this reflects more time given by God before passing final judgment.

In both Matthew and Mark’s Gospels, which are the only two to relate the fig tree story as above, the disciples, typically, did not get it. They focused on the overt sign, the miracle. And Jesus does not say that this is a teaching about judgment, but goes along and gives a teaching about faith in both cases. In Mark the overt teaching is about faith and prayer and forgiveness. So, perhaps this is to soften the message of judgment and remind us that what we are to worry about is not judgment at the last day but how we conduct our relationships with God (prayer, faith) and each other (feed, heal, be compassionate) now. And in between make sure our temple is clean.

Luke does not have the story of Jesus withering the fig tree, but he does give another interesting parable about a fig tree:

1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them - do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
6Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8“ ‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’ ”
(Luke 13:1-9)

In Luke this parable is placed right after his first passages about interpreting signs of the (end)times (Luke 12:35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning.” Luke 12:54 “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does.”). I note that here not only did the tree get three years to bear fruit, it also gets yet another chance as the caretaker intercedes on its behalf and promises to give the tree special care so that it might yet bear fruit. It’s quite an amazing softening of the message in contrast to the immediate withering in Matthew.

According to my study NIV, Luke was most likely addressing the upper class of Romans and his Gospel aimed at the Gentiles. So this is interesting when compared to the Matthew, who supposedly was addressing primarily Greek-speaking Jews. I admit I have not read Luke as much as Matthew so I don’t have a good feel for Luke’s spin on the Message. However, there is a clear difference in the sense of urgency between the two. I know both Matthew and Luke are possibly based upon Mark, which was also directed to Gentile readers. Matthew, writing later than Mark, shortened the time between curse and consequence, making the judgment “at hand,” while Luke greatly lengthened it. The world had not literally ended with Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection, so perhaps this meant that God was gong to give the world a second chance to repent, under the care of the Spirit. Luke, then, is the one to go on and give us Acts, the movement of the Gospel out into the World.

Luke mentions the fig tree once more, again in the context of Signs of the End of the Age:

25“There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
29He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
32“I tell you the truth, this generation[b] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Luke 21:25-32)

Here is my NIV study Bible definition of repent: “Repentance is more than a change of mind or feeling sorry for one’s sins. It is a radical and deliberate turning or returning to God.”

Well, this little study has greatly deepened my appreciation of the fig tree story, which is so easy to overlook.

cheers,
lunamoth

[Bandit]

yes Lunamoth. you did a real nice job pulling this together. i noticed there was that difference on the fig tree also in the gospels. almost as if they saw it begin to wither right then and when they passed it the second time it had died at the root.
i also see it in a metaphor in judgment sense and i also see that in a parallel drawn as the fig tree in the last days.

one of my favorite teachings on the fig tree is in the budding of the fig tree and knowing that summer is nigh.

What i also find interesting is the Lords comment there right after the fig tree withered is he mentions faith without doubt to move mountains then i think he said you can do this to. so there really is a big lesson(s) of understanding there with fig tree.

Here is my NIV study Bible definition of repent: “Repentance is more than a change of mind or feeling sorry for one’s sins. It is a radical and deliberate turning or returning to God.”

Well, this little study has greatly deepened my appreciation of the fig tree story, which is so easy to overlook.

It has deepened my appreciation of the fig tree story also.
I could talk about this for quite some time.
But what is on the agenda for the next day in the timeline?

[lunamoth]

Glad you liked it, Bandit. I did it primarily for my own edification. Next up is Jesus Authority Questioned (quite a big topic), Jesus teaches in the Temple, and Jesus anointed. I put a bit about anointment in the Visit to the Tomb thread.

I have not spent much time studying across the four Gospels and I'm finding it very interesting.

Any takers on the above passages?

peace,
lunamoth

[Bandit]

I think this is what we want. After this he goes into parables, not sure if you wanted all of those. John kind of leaves the questioning out.It is quite obvious that the authority here is very ignorant to what is going on with Jesus AND that of John the baptist.People really just do not believe. After all he did in miracles and teaching and casting out devils...it still just was not enough to get them to believe in the one true God. They are afraid of getting stoned by the people because there were a lot of people who did believe and loved Jesus.

He wont answer there silly question and tell them, because he already knows they still will not believe the authority is from God .

Matt 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
21:24And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
21:27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.


Mark11:27 And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders,
11:28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
11:30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
11:31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
11:33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.


Luke 20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
20:2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
20:3And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:
20:4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
20:5And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?
20:6But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.
20:7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.
20:8And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

[lunamoth]

Hi Bandit, yes these are the passages. I hope to return to this thread later today for more discussion, but for now a small offering:

Heaven on Their Minds

[Basstian]

After all he did in miracles and teaching and casting out devils...it still just was not enough to get them to believe in the one true God.

While this is a true statement we need to remember that this was passover and that Jewish men from all over the world where coming to and in Jerusalem presenting themselves before God this week. They unlike the "locals" hadn't seen the miracles. As this week went on the crowd just got bigger.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Basstian

While this is a true statement we need to remember that this was passover and that Jewish men from all over the world where coming to and in Jerusalem presenting themselves before God this week. They unlike the "locals" hadn't seen the miracles. As this week went on the crowd just got bigger.

Yes. A lot of people were not there to see, but they may have remembered something about it from the previous years. I think the word was out though because this was at the end of his 3 1/2 year ministry. He was loved by so many and then there in the end so many rejected him and they denied him for who he truly is.

this is interesting, showing that he was in and out of there and I cant say for sure what day the scribes and priests confronted him. Maybe the second or third day?

And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel,...

[NewAgeNerd]

It certainly sounds like these passages might be in reference to a passover seder. Since the destruction of the second temple, we no longer have sacrifices of the pascal lamb. We do still eat unleavened bread, and there is still the seder feast. However, I am not familiar with how to read the gospels, and as a result I cannot construct a very clear picture of what is going on. I wish I could give you guys more clear ideas of what is going on.

I know this is a side note, but why do christians no longer observe the biblical holidays such as passover, rosh hashannah, and yom kippur?

[lunamoth]

We often have a seder supper at our church for Passover.

lunamoth