The decline of Religious influence and the increase of Police

[Quahom1]

Path of One presented a stupendous thought about today's society and the lawlessness we suffer from. With the decline of religious influence in today's society, wroughts the increase of lawlessness, the increase of society's police forces, and the losing battle over violence.

Wouldn't it be prudent to consider that religion does in fact have a more powerful influence over society than that of no-religion, but having a "police force" to effect the same socially accepted behaviors?

Instead of having the social civility enforced from without, why not stick with that which has worked more or less for thousands of years (religious convictions enforcing the social civility from within)?

Of course this would require our social leaders changing course in mid-stream, but what they are cowtowing, isn't working (obviously), and prior to at least the 50s, the influence of basic religious principles did more or less maintain society within acceptable boundaries...

what do you think?

v/r

Q

[I, Brian]

Agreed - certainly in the UK the only time we seem to hear of the UK churches being active is when arguing the rights of minority groups - little on trying to shape overall social issues.

[Bandit]

i can only add what i have seen with my eyes & my experience & the changes i have noticed.

my last visit to San Francisco revealed police force in front of just about every public building. i am in reference to hotels, office buildings, schools, mc donalds etc... it is not so noticed away from the inner city. i was kind of shocked at what i saw & this was in 1999. my last visit to Los Angeles & Hollywood was the same thing. police sirens & people being arrested all over the place & i have no interest in ever going back there not even to visit. i noticed a huge difference from the way both cities were in the 80s & even the replies from people who had lived there for a long time said it was not the same.

Typically, one may not notice the changes as they take place when you stay in a particular place. but when you live there for awhile, leave, then go back to visit, you will notice the changes.

There is a 'spirit' that seems to travel with this & i saw it coming many years ago. it seems to influence a negative with a negative & i can only see that as sure sign of decay.

i kind of saw it coming with the individuality doctrine & other things that people were preaching back in the 80's. what i think has happened is, people do not have any real meaningful & common values which will in return cause the whole pradigm to shift where everyone is stepping all over each other.
then the children have no direction because they are raised to think everything is normal because that is what they were taught from their parents or they were taught nothing.
there is just no reason for there to be police force in schools monitoring the halls on a daily basis that way, searching young people for drugs & weapons. sadly, that is the way it is today in some schools.

in my school, students were given the responibilty to monitor different things.

will it ever get back to the days when the whole class respected the teachers & principal? i dont know

it almost seems like some kind of long term set up, to where the globe will become policed & government will step in with militant type of procedures to restore law & order. i kind of suspect it will happen soon in the states in order to secure & protect the homeland. needles to say, i saw all these potential problems coming 20 years ago when i was still in my youth & very few would even listen to what i was trying to say.

another thing i am seeing in all walks of life & in all areas, no one wants to take responsibility for anything with an I dont care attitude. we cannot do that to each other.
what happens is, the sincere & honest man gets taken advantage of today because there are those who view honesty as a target to to take advantage of them. it becomes no big deal because after that trust is violated, they can just find another target. so, you end up with a confused society where no one trusts anyone or you have this fake sense / false pretense of love & trust.

in my hometown of only about 1/4 million. there were no murders for about 20 years back in 1970. today, 2005 - 2006 there is a murder just about every week. it did not get that way over night. it was progressive.

is it normal for people to be murdered in cold blood every week in my hometown??

& who gets involved?
the police

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Path of One presented a stupendous thought about today's society and the lawlessness we suffer from. With the decline of religious influence in today's society, wroughts the increase of lawlessness, the increase of society's police forces, and the losing battle over violence.

Wouldn't it be prudent to consider that religion does in fact have a more powerful influence over society than that of no-religion, but having a "police force" to effect the same socially accepted behaviors?

Instead of having the social civility enforced from without, why not stick with that which has worked more or less for thousands of years (religious convictions enforcing the social civility from within)?

Of course this would require our social leaders changing course in mid-stream, but what they are cowtowing, isn't working (obviously), and prior to at least the 50s, the influence of basic religious principles did more or less maintain society within acceptable boundaries...

what do you think?

v/r

Q

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nati...7405311980.htm
It seems that Korea has plans for robotic police/soldiers, all controlled by wireless technology.
{As an aside, how does this "wireless technology" to control these police/soldiers differ from spirit in humans? Answer: It makes the State into "God" for these robots...}

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

It's a nice idea, but who's religion will the state choose?

Society's problems could certainly be solved by an 'official' religion where potential wrong do-ers are afraid of going to 'hell' or whatever equivalent there might be. The problem here is that this solution steps on everyone's right to freedom of religion, i.e. I might not believe what the state tells me to believe. Then what?

Alternatively we could introduce a police state wherein the potential wrong do-ers would be afraid of almost certain capture and harsh punishment. But this solution steps on the rights of the non-criminals and the liberals to live a private, un-molested life.

The experiment that is society today is an attempt to give equality and freedom to everyone, regardless of religion or politics. At the moment, no, it isn't working all that well, but I would personally prefer an unstable, possibly failing society in which I am free to pursue my own beliefs to a strong society in which I am required to subscribe to someone else's religion.

And to those Christians who support this idea I ask this, would you still support it if this new state religion required you to renounce Christ?

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

One further note.

I wonder how the Baha'i community in Iran feel about the official state religion.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

One further note.

I wonder how the Baha'i community in Iran feel about the official state religion.

Exactly. State religion can become an excuse for totalitarianism.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

It's a nice idea, but who's religion will the state choose?

Society's problems could certainly be solved by an 'official' religion where potential wrong do-ers are afraid of going to 'hell' or whatever equivalent there might be. The problem here is that this solution steps on everyone's right to freedom of religion, i.e. I might not believe what the state tells me to believe. Then what?

Alternatively we could introduce a police state wherein the potential wrong do-ers would be afraid of almost certain capture and harsh punishment. But this solution steps on the rights of the non-criminals and the liberals to live a private, un-molested life.

The experiment that is society today is an attempt to give equality and freedom to everyone, regardless of religion or politics. At the moment, no, it isn't working all that well, but I would personally prefer an unstable, possibly failing society in which I am free to pursue my own beliefs to a strong society in which I am required to subscribe to someone else's religion.

And to those Christians who support this idea I ask this, would you still support it if this new state religion required you to renounce Christ?

i think that is what it will come to rather abruptly. there will be no more freedom of religion & we will all see a society of police & militant brutality in order to maintain. religion will go out the window for everyone & in its place will stand a rod iron fist of gadgets & technology monitoring every move for order with little or no remorse for offenders.

a society where you would not dare litter or even spit for fear of being arrested.
i dont think our laws in the U.S. are wrong, people just dont want to abide by them & seek for loopholes & do not appreciate or respect what they have, thus the whole class is punished. i dont think this has anything to do with an eternal hell belief, it has more to do with - right now.

i am sadly seeing Christ removed already throughout the world & people being forced to renounce him. it has not taken much to achieve that in other places.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nati...7405311980.htm
It seems that Korea has plans for robotic police/soldiers, all controlled by wireless technology.
{As an aside, how does this "wireless technology" to control these police/soldiers differ from spirit in humans? Answer: It makes the State into "God" for these robots...}

it is icky.
that seems to be what it is all being set up for, just in test mode for different functions in different places. i am seeing tons of cameras going up all over the place. even the freeways are loaded with cameras. i see all kinds of possibilites with these things.

[InquisitiveInHalifax]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

It's a nice idea, but who's religion will the state choose?
The experiment that is society today is an attempt to give equality and freedom to everyone, regardless of religion or politics. At the moment, no, it isn't working all that well, but I would personally prefer an unstable, possibly failing society in which I am free to pursue my own beliefs to a strong society in which I am required to subscribe to someone else's religion.

I couldn't agree more.

I think that looking to religion to fix our current societal problems is looking for a simple answer to a very complex problem. I do see how religion can bring people together and create a feeling of community but it can also pull people apart and cause wars (my religion is better than yours/I'm right and you're wrong mentality). There are people in my family that hardly speak to me because I haven't chosen to be a Born Again Christian as they are. I think the problem is more a lack of family values than a lack of religion, imho.

-R

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by InquisitiveInHalifax

I couldn't agree more.

I think that looking to religion to fix our current societal problems is looking for a simple answer to a very complex problem. I do see how religion can bring people together and create a feeling of community but it can also pull people apart and cause wars (my religion is better than yours/I'm right and you're wrong mentality). There are people in my family that hardly speak to me because I haven't chosen to be a Born Again Christian as they are. I think the problem is more a lack of family values than a lack of religion, imho.

-R

I think the problem is more a lack of family values than a lack of religion, imho.

i think this is the key right here. it seems like a losing battle almost to try & get people back to the family values especially when values cant even be defined any longer & each person has there own set of values & that is all that matters. others can drop dead.

everything that seems to pop up today is geared to a selfish, prideful type of attitude where it is all about me & have it your way & you deserve it. that spirit was broke in me at a young age- not just because of religion but because my parents made sure that i was going to respect them & others while i lived under their care. i did not as much as even steal a tulip from the neighbor or i was knocking on their front door, giving the tulip back & telling them i was sorry.

so i just wonder how many religions today are still teaching quality family values to their people?

even in my short time in the world & its affairs of wrong doings, my parents never cut me off & neither did my church or the people in my church. kids are being left on the curb with no direction. you would think the safest place for a child would be the home & the mothers womb. but it isn't always & i am just as guilty for that neglect as a parent, but he still turned out real good & he knows i am there for him always.
i also see a lot of secular christians today & i dont think they even know who Jesus is.

so, if religion is not the answer, (obviously Jesus or any other leader will never be agreed upon)
if police force is not the answer... i would bet that technology does not have the answer either for it seems to be drawing people in a different direction in the last decade but gives an impression of being the answer.
science obviously is just as confused & does not have all the answers to these issues but they can sure make it look like the answer. politicians lie & say they have all the answers, but they dont. people say more education is the answer, but that has not shown to be true either. others claim get rich & have tons of money for your answer, which can be just as corrupt. i can only imagine how corrupt some of these big wheels are & the movies can portray it very well.

sci-fi is not that far off when i see what it is really projecting. someone is getting those ideas from somewhere.

people cant even agree today on what the word respect means without some long overly defined political correct meaning for each individual. people are indeed born selfish without discipline. at the age of two a child knows the difference between yes yes & no no but the child still does not listen & wants to rebel. i dont know very many perfect children who never want to rebel.

then what is the answer? maybe someone out there has the 'answer' but that answer seems to be an agenda for all this mess to happen under the covers with a slightly bent agenda. someone is calling the shots. hmmm

i guess nobody knows the answer - so this man or beast or whatever will just have to run its course.

i am not saying there are not some good honest people & good loving parents & good children in the world coming from all faiths, because there are .


not sure what yanked my chain on this because no matter what anyone says we appear to be answerless. i still have my freedom to disagree, so i guess that is a good thing.
you know there is such a thing as a point of no return & maybe that is where we are real close on in flight.

[path_of_one]

Perhaps I can clarify a bit what I was saying- I was speaking of religion in the anthropological sense, which means that it is wrapped up in social values and standards of everyday living, and is not divorced from the practicalities of life. In most small-scale, traditional societies: family values = religion, or at least they overlap to the point of utter blending.

It is only somewhat recently that religion has been divorced from the rest of life, and I think this is at least as problematic as the "decline" of religion. There are many in the States who would consider themselves "religious" and go to church on Sunday, but still have no problem lying, cheating, stealing, and overall being buttheads the rest of the week. This is one part of the decline of religion- it isn't just more people becoming atheists.

In fact, I was speaking about religion very broadly. Some of the most moral people I know are secular humanists or agnostics; religion in this sense is (the best definition I've heard so far) "human transformation in response to perceived ultimacy." So some philosophic traditions, such as Confucianism, can lead to the same social betterment as the more mainstream "religious" ones.

I would not advocate any sort of state religion, nor that the government need be religious. It is the PEOPLE that need some sort of religious or philosophical tradition, very much bound with their everyday lives, in order to live according to higher moral standards without policing. It doesn't matter whether you are Buddhist, Catholic, Pagan, or secular humanist for this purpose- it is the necessity of having moral standards and guidelines that are wrapped up in everyday life and not perceived as some separate category of action. Most small-scale, traditional societies' religious beliefs overlapped with everything in their lives- how to interact with the environment and how to manage resources, economic interactions and who had to take care of whom, how to be a good political leader, how to relate to one's family, one's responsibilities to one's community, etc. Nowadays it seems that all these things are regulated through law and then must be policed...

I leave you with what I think was a very wise argument by Confucius:
"The Master said, 'Guide them by edicts, keep them in line with punishments, and the common people will stay out of trouble but will have no sense of shame. Guide them by virtue, keep them in line with the rites, and they will, besides having a sense of shame, reform themselves.'" (The Analects II3)

How many CEOs, government officials, etc. do we hear about that claw, and cheat, and lie their way to the top? How many are generous with their own workers, let alone the wider society? How many corporations ship their factories oversees to avoid environmental and labor costs in the US, to exploit children and the poor in other countries, and to dump toxic waste without cost? How many people make their fortunes off the backs of others, caring little for generosity, charity, and taking care of others? How much do we hear about the world's governments resorting to violence rather than to love? If we lead by law and punitive regulations, we will only ever have a society as safe and good as our capacity to police it. If we lead by relationships, love, and virtue, people learn to police themselves.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Perhaps I can clarify a bit what I was saying- I was speaking of religion in the anthropological sense, which means that it is wrapped up in social values and standards of everyday living, and is not divorced from the practicalities of life. In most small-scale, traditional societies: family values = religion, or at least they overlap to the point of utter blending.

this is the way i got it growing up. it was all incorporated into one system. the church, the parents, the leaders, the schools were all doing something for others & they were in agreement.

it aint that way any more. not even in a lot of churches.

but i am thinking like you say, it is because people have divorced religion & have made religion this old lost thing that no one needs where they used to overlap.... so now it is believe what you want, do what you want & whatever cause religion dont matter.

you hit it right there Path, as far as i can see.

[Kaldayen]

Greetings everyone,

I don't think the decline of religious influence per se is directly involved with this situation. (i.e. The situation isn't different in the US bible belt). I think it's by what we replace it : the money god.

You claim that the society wants to promote equality but still, some don't have the same possibilities than others, and it's getting worse every day. That creates jealousy and crimes. People are always hungry for more money, at the expense of others... and often they don't even realize they're taking it from the others. IMO that's the crime-generating problem in our world.

We need to see responsible governments encouraging community and personal efforts and creating social programs and access to education. That's not what we see nowadays... we see the exact opposite and some leaders even claim they're working in God's name.
___
Kal

[path_of_one]

Yes, Kal- that is my point. One can profess all they want is in the name of God, but if it isn't, it isn't. There is a difference between being "religious" in the sense that one goes to a church on Sunday and checks the "Christian" box on the census, and being religious in the sense that the belief system permeates one's life and causes one to put others and God before oneself and money.

I agree with you that many people in the States (and elsewhere) have decided to worship the almighty dollar. It is unfortunate. Money is not the root of all evil, but the love of money is...