the deep flaw in both PRAYER and MEDITATION

[immortalitylost]

Oh, I just read a post that didn't show up before or something...

I wasn't dismissing the tests, just my weird sense of humor, I guess...

No sarcasm intended!

In either post!

Seriously, don't fall!

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by wil

I always think of the likes of Dali Lama, Ghandi, Mother Theresa, am I wrong?

These folks had the good fortune to find a cause to utterly lose themselves in. I feel the danger of slipping into the semantic quicksand here. Yes, they were/are "selfless" in the sense that we usually mean, but even the most enlightened person is never without a self. Who tells them when it's time to go to the bathroom?

Chris

[earl]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

These folks had the good fortune to find a cause to utterly lose themselves in. I feel the danger of slipping into the semantic quicksand here. Yes, they were/are "selfless" in the sense that we usually mean, but even the most enlightened person is never without a self. Who tells them when it's time to go to the bathroom?

Chris

hard to argue with the bladder, particularly as you get up in years. so pretty much it's in control. I pee therefore I am. earl

[China Cat Sunflower]

Here's the thing Wil: you might ask me, knowing something about my spiritual outlook as you do, if I admit that prayer and meditation help alleviate the existential anxieties of human existence, why don't I do those things myself? If I know that belief for belief's sake works, why not embrace it? The answer is that I can't. I can't just decide to believe. Why? Because, and this goes straight to the OP, I think therefore I am. Masturbatory intellectual activities, regardless of their psychological efficacy, circumvent my ability to practice the first commandment, which is "know thyself." I can't know myself and pretend that parts of me are some divine other. That covers prayer. The reason I can't meditate is that it takes yet another self to make me go sit. I can't sit. It hurts, I don't like it, and I just won't do it.

I do find it funny and ironic that I had to completely deconstruct and dissolve my "faith" in order to appreciate the essential nature and efficacy of faith. Now that I know how it works I can't use it.

Chris

[wil]

Namaste Chris,

As to the 'enlightened' I don't think they lose self, but ego, the need for the self to be right or better. They become in this world but not of it.

As to the knowledge getting in the way of practice...to me it is like typing. Yeah the hunt and peck served me well, but taking the time to learn to touch type simply took daily practice, baby steps and now I don't type letters. I type words and sentences, I don't think of t h i s o r t h a t....my fingers just type this or that as it is all connected.

Same with meditation and prayer and belief...if you have an inkling that it is something you want to try...try it...fake it till you make it....try 'as if'....use it as an experiment...do it scientifically and monitor the results.

I do know a little of you from the time we've spent together on this board. I know an incredible thinker, a soul I believe I coulld rely on if I asked, and I'd love to see you absolutely comfortable in the skin your in.

My mantra in life that has served me well...in any situation, no matter how disconcerting...."I don't remember standing in line and signing up for this class....but I know one thing, I want to pass it. As I do not want to fail and have to take it over."... "If I'm gonna laugh about it later, I may as well laugh about it now"....and "I don't know how, and I can't see how...but I do know it is all good"

peace bro.

[path_of_one]

On faking it til you make it, I highly recommend "The Year of Living Biblically." Funny, endearing, and demonstrates this exact concept.

Amazon.com: The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible: A. J. Jacobs: Books

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Here's the thing Wil: you might ask me, knowing something about my spiritual outlook as you do, if I admit that prayer and meditation help alleviate the existential anxieties of human existence, why don't I do those things myself? If I know that belief for belief's sake works, why not embrace it? The answer is that I can't. I can't just decide to believe. Why? Because, and this goes straight to the OP, I think therefore I am.

I think of both prayer and meditation as being noncognitive. My impression is that both Christian "contemplatives" and Buddhists have practices that pretty much put both thought and sensory experience on the back burner, so to speak. In Buddhism, the mind is considered another organ.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

I think of both prayer and meditation as being noncognitive. My impression is that both Christian "contemplatives" and Buddhists have practices that pretty much put both thought and sensory experience on the back burner, so to speak. In Buddhism, the mind is considered another organ.

Nice pun. (contemplate-jhana-burn.) Was it intentional?

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Nice pun. (contemplate-jhana-burn.) Was it intentional?

Not a conscious one.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Not a conscious one.

....(ten character minimum.)

[wil]

darn funny

[wil]

a single space is a character evidently

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

interesting thread. i would have to, in principle, disagree with the OP's characterization of mediation in relation specifically to Buddhist meditation, though i certainly recognize the other forms of meditation which exist.

Buddhist meditation produces physiological changes in the brain:

Meditation increases brain gray matter

Meditation Alters Brain Structure, Functioning

Meditation Associated With Increased Grey Matter In The Brain

so leaving aside questions of ego and self and such, there is a direct, positive benefit for beings that engage in Buddhist meditation.

metta,

~v

[c0de]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

....(ten character minimum.)

invisible ink FTW!!

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by c0de

invisible ink FTW!!

invisible ink FTW!!