The End Times: The Quran vs The Hadith

[c0de]

CONTENTS:

Part 1 - No More Messiahs
Part 2 - The Dajjal/Antichrist of the Hadith
Part 3 - The Gog and Magog of the Quran
Part 4 - Who are the Gog & Magog?
Part 5 - The Meanings within the Myth

Part 1 - No More Messiahs

Every major religion has their own version of this prophecy. Most also have the Messianic element in common. One interesting factor is that in Islam, the Messianic element is NOT present in the Quran itself. Nowhere in the Quran is there mention of another Messiah (Jesus PBUH or otherwise) returning after the Prophet. Nor is there any mention of an antichrist/Dajjal... Both of these ideas are introduced in Muslim thought through the Hadith.

Now first of all, the Quran actually contradicts the idea that Jesus (Peace be upon him) is alive in physical form and will come back into this world before Judgment Day. This is proven by the following verse in the Quran. Note that: God says He will question Jesus Peace Be Upon Him, on the Day of Judgment about the doctrine of Trinity that his followers adopted. Jesus PBUH in reply says **that this doctrine was introduced after his death.** Which is proof positive that Jesus PBUH has passed away, as the doctrine of Trinity was introduced in Christianity well over a 1000 years ago (I am not sure exactly when however, maybe the Council of Nicea)

Chapter 5: Verse 117
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

From what we already know about the other verses in the Quran, it is clear that:

A) The Son of Mary was not divine and possessed a normal human physical constitution.
B) No man is granted extended life (Quran 21:34 + 21:8)

So from this, we can already see that all the Hadiths which promise a second coming, are immediately false, because they contradict the Quran. This is our first conclusion, that Islam does not contain the Messianic account of the End Times, which is central to Judiasm and Christianity. We Muslims are supposed to believe that our Prophet was the actual Messiah that is being awaited for by the Jews and Christians. It is only our mis-understanding which has led us also to now stand in wait for the return of Jesus (PBUH) even when our Quran is explicit on the issue of his non-return.

Part 2 - The Dajjal/Antichrist of the Hadith

There are numerous hadith narrated which deal with the concept of the Dajjal, however this figure is completely absent from the Quran. The Anti-christ/Dajjal is said to be on his way in the Hadith, and is supposed to be killed by Jesus PBUH himself. However, we have already established that Jesus PBUH is not coming back (according to the Quran). If this is so, what about the Dajjal?

Three possibilities exist:

A) The Dajjal is also a fabrication and does not exist
B) The Dajjal is real, but it is not dependent on Jesus PBUH returning
C) The Dajjal is a metaphor and a symbol

I believe that option C is the closest to the truth for the reason that something along the lines of the Dajjal is represented by the Gog and Maggog in the Quran.

Part 3 -The Gog and Magog of the Quran

In the Quran, specifically near the end of the chapter entitled "The Cave", we find a detailed account of the Gog and Magog. The account tells of a King Dhul Qurnain (considered by some to represent the historical figure of Darius II of the Persian Empire) who builds a wall against some barbarous tribes in the north of his empire. First he travels to the Black Sea, then turns and heads to the Caspian, securing the Northern boundaries of Persia. It is important to note that Darius II was a fervent follower of Zoroaster, which some Muslims consider to be a Prophet of God sent to the Persians. Darius the Second actually built the Wall at Derbent, (which is on the banks of the Caspian Sea) which is mistakenly referred to as Alexander's wall by some today. It is this very structure that the Quran points to (in some opinions) that kept the Gog and Magog out.

But the prophecy is clear. One day, the wall will crumble, and on that day:

"We shall let some of them surge against the others and the trumped will be blown, then We shall gather them all together. And We shall bring forth Hell exposed to view before the disbelievers. Whose eyes were under a cover from my reminder, and they could not bear to hear" Chapter 18 "The Cave", Verses 99-101

This is a dark prophecy... As much as people have tried to give a positive spin to these words, the truth is obvious: There is no happy ending to the world. Compare the words "We shall let some of them surge against the others" of the Quran, with the words of the Bible, the Book of Mathew

"For nation shall rise against nation: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." Matt 24:7-8.

Part 4 -Who are the Gog & Magog?

There is a hadith, in which God states: "I have created some of my servants whom no one can destroy but Myself" (Kanaz al-Ummal fi Sunani-l-Aqwal wa-l-Afal, by Al-Shaikh Ala al-Din Ali al-Muttaqi, page 3021). In Sahih Muslim, we read: "No one will have the power to fight against them" (Muslim 52:20). Taken together, the Quran and the Hadith point to an all but invincible entity which can not be tackled by any combined human effort, let alone a single human being. This sounds very similar to something like the Dajjal of the Hadith. We can, at this point choose to say that the Dajjal really is the Gog and Magog. And one reason why we can say this is because regarding the Dajjal, in the Hadith, the Prophet said that whoever recites the first and/or last ten verses of the chapter of the Quran entitled "The Cave" they will protect him from his tribulations (Sahih Muslim 6:42 and Kitab al Sunnah, Abu Dawood Suliman 36:12).

This is the same chapter that deals with the Gog and Magog. And the verses that are being spoken of, are very crucial to understanding what connects all the concepts together:

"Say: Shall We inform you who are the greatest losers in respect of deeds? Those whose effort goes astray in this world's life, and they think that they are making good manufactures" Verses: 103-104

Manufactures? A clear hint to something post industrial. The era which we are in right now, qualifies as this period in time when Gog and Magog will be let loose upon the world. We know that they will "sally forth from every point of eminence" which means they will control all the strategic advantages the world has to offer. But how can this be? These strategic points are located all over the globe, they comprise not just of geographic locations, but of resource areas as well. So clearly, the subject here is not of any one nation, but of something more.

All nations can be destroyed, all empires fall apart, and all people die by themselves. But the Gog and Magog are stated to be invincible... So there is only one possibility left, that Gog and Magog, are a system. But why then did Darius II build a wall against them? How can a system be stopped by a wall?

The only way to reconcile that portion of the Quran with the hadith, is that if we assume that at the time of Darius II, this system itself did not exist, but maybe the people who developed that system and have become its main proponents did exist back then. Who were the people against which the wall at Derbent was built? These were the Sythians, the tribes in the Caucus region. The history of Europe indicates that Slavic races did mix with the Anglo-Saxons.

However, this description does not have much to do with race, but the geographic location these tribes/people occupied. Race is never really a factor in the Quran because it is not afforded any intrinsic qualities by God in the Quran. So the hint must be to the geographical area. And the locations listed in this passage points to an area North of the Persian Empire. To the North, lies Europe, the home of these tribes which mixed with each other as time passed. And what was born in Europe near the end of the Middle Ages? The Current eco/political system which today controls the entire world. It does not matter where you live, whichever continent you occupy, the market system that is operated today in your country is the same. The money that you use is all connected to the same world economy, and is generated by the central banks of your nation. The system, where ever you go, is the same. And this system, is the "Dajjal," or The Great Deciever...

Part 5 - The Meanings within the Myth

While Muslims today go about actually searching for Dajjal in the form of a real person in the shape of the descriptions in the Hadith (with one eye etc.) they do not consider the fact that this description was shown to the Prophet in a dream, a vision. Just as the vision of Daniel PBUH, in the bible was a metahpor, as all visions in dreams are supposed to be metaphoric. So why do we actually believe that the Dajjal is an actual person? Maybe because of the confusion in the hadiths. But if we take those hadiths in the context of the Quranic perspective, the matter becomes much clearer.

The study of the first and last ten verses of the chapter entitled "The Cave" is crucial, as well as all the verses that go in between this chapter. They reveal very clearly the spiritual/materialistic dimension of the enemy that we face. But the conclusion that can not be escaped is this: There is no fighting this enemy. There is not uprising, no revolution and no Messiah to help us overthrow this system. The last Prophet was just that the Last Prophet. He transmitted the Quran, and this is our protection, which protects those who choose to follow it, from the tribulations of the Dajjal. And what is the greatest tribulation of the Dajjal? The greatest manifestation of the oldest deception ever: Making this transitory life seem more important then the absolute spiritual dimension of reality.

All societies have succumbed to the Dajjal, and all people have been enslaved by it. Capitalism/Communism/Socialism/Democracy, it matters not which label you live under, because the Market they all function in is the same.

How fitting is it that the chapter is entitled "The Cave" contains the story of the few youths who sought to run away from the system of idol-worshipping of their time, and they sought refuge in a cave... Yet, they could not escape their basic needs and eventually had to go out for food and supplies. When eventually caught (because they they were using local currency which revealed their identities) they were put to death... yet the Quran shows them as heroes. But why? Well, because it was never upon them to win against, or overthrow the system, but to do the best they could to avoid participation in it. To keep themselves pure. Maybe this is what we are supposed to do today, avoid participation in all the idolatry of global society. The myths, materialism and deception... all of it, to the best that we can manage. Considering we live 1400 years away from our Prophet... in a world steeped in deceptive values and false idols of every type... This itself, is the greatest struggle... The war within, is the only real "Jihad" left to fight...

[dailogue is the best]

A very intersting thread, c0de. What I like most about is that you presented your own thoughts about the subject, and your own explanations to the Scriptures and Hadiths. I will be back for more discussion, c0de. Get ready, brother .....

[c0de]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

A very intersting thread, c0de. What I like most about is that you presented your own thoughts about the subject, and your own explanations to the Scriptures and Hadiths. I will be back for more discussion, c0de. Get ready, brother .....

I can't take credit for this. The work done on uncovering the identity of Gog and Maggog comes from the tafsir and research work of a Mr. Mohammed Ali, who articulated his thoughts many decades ago.

The only personal addition that I have made, is the interpretation of the conclusion. The scholar Mr. Ali actually had a much more optimistic outlook, and believed that God will bring about a global spiritual awakening before the Last Day... but I believe that no such awakening will take place.

[Tao_Equus]

Well I neither wish to infer nor detract credit for the source but do applaud your effort to distinguish metaphor from fact. We have had our differences already c0de, and you really piss me off when you start telling others what they should think, I mean nothing infuriates me more, but that said I am beginning to see you believe all humans equal. Not a standard Islamic view...(please do not bother to 'quote' me subsequently abrogated verses to the contrary. They will not impress me.) But I see you are but a few steps from accepting that horrible, terrible, cruel reality that there is no god. No salvation. No 72 virgins. No ambrosia. We are each gifted, and it is the most precious of gifts, with a few score years of either mundane or meaningful existence. I am confident that you will not waste it on the propaganda of man who lived many centuries ago. Life is for the living, not for the long dead.

tao

[c0de]

@ Tao

Good Mourning

But I see you are but a few steps from accepting that horrible, terrible, cruel reality that there is no god. No salvation.

Please don't confuse my cynicism regarding the finite, with your pessimism of the infinite.

I am confident that you will not waste it on the propaganda of man who lived many centuries ago. Life is for the living, not for the long dead.

When the spirit is alive it can see, much more then the material eyes can fathom. My faith is not based in events that took place in the past but in a reality that is very much alive in the present moment.

I am beginning to see you believe all humans equal.

I do and that equality is applied in such a way: I know that faith is not a property intrinsic to the self, contrary to what you believe. I know that the only reason I believe, and you do not is not because I think I am special and you are not, because I know that I never had a choice not to believe. Not even in my weakest, darkest moments of despair (even in that brief span of time when I considered declaring an open state of rebellion) did I ever question the existence of God... That is a grace that was given to me, I did not earn it. I believe that this life is a moving painting and God is the Painter... and this is just the way I was painted.

Similarly, the reason you do not believe is not because of any intrinsic properties that you might think you have, all of your potentialities were given to you by the One who created you. And the moment He chooses to make you believe, you will. When God chooses to reveal Himself, no one can resist the obviousness of the Truth. For many that moment never truly comes in this life...

This is why I believe that as long as we both end up in the same place, eventually... It all works out. I believe in God's Kingdom, and I know that we will meet there one day... And maybe we will laugh when we remember this present moment in the finite space/time continuum.

[Radunzel]

And this is where the quran and sunnah contradict themselves..

the only way people can say it is harmonous with each other is if they are raised muslim.. any single let alone double take proves this for example,. the oft quoted "seal of the prophets" becomes the second from last prophet..

yet the common arguement is isa (pbuh) didnt die therefore when he comes back mohammed (pbuh) is still the last..

then you ask them who will be the last prophet on earth..

its a winless cyclic arguement but still..

to be quite frank the apocolypse and the second coming are rather too important for allah (swt) to leave out of the nobel quran.. therefore its human intervention

[c0de]

@ Radunzel

Good Morning, and thank you for joining the discussion

Originally Posted by Radunzel

And this is where the quran and sunnah contradict themselves..

the only way people can say it is harmonous with each other is if they are raised muslim.. any single let alone double take proves this for example,. the oft quoted "seal of the prophets" becomes the second from last prophet..

yet the common arguement is isa (pbuh) didnt die therefore when he comes back mohammed (pbuh) is still the last..

then you ask them who will be the last prophet on earth..

its a winless cyclic arguement but still..

to be quite frank the apocolypse and the second coming are rather too important for allah (swt) to leave out of the nobel quran.. therefore its human intervention

What puzzles me most of all is that Muslims seriously try to entertain this contradiction and try to find ways around it, basically in favor of the Hadith! If it clearly contradicts the Quran, why not simply drop it and move on?

[Radunzel]

thank you c0de for bringing this up because this is a subject very passionate to me..

when i had a doubt of faith i went down to the masjid and a revert himself was arguing parts of the quran to me and it turns out that he himself had never read the quran since reverting,, he had left a wife and 2 children become muslim and simply spent all his time in a mosque to "prove" his belife.. he now has a new wife and 2 new children.. yet has still never read the quran...

how can a man pretend to be a pious muslim and having not read the quran.. when it is plain as the nose on my face when all he is following is the sunnah?

he seeks with his eyes "how a muslim lives" ie the sunnah yet completely disregards the world of allah (Swt).. i know this is nothing new because people reverting for false reasoning is well known.. to escape or to undo the western view of feminism, infactuation with a beautful sister ect..

but everyone knows on this forum no matter what creed color or name what conjecture is.. and to believe the sunnah and the noble quran co-exsist AT ALL let alone compliment each other is painfully so.. its either

a) Raised Belief

or

b) Willing to accept contradiction to become muslim

BUt in both cases its a severe lack of human intellect.

its really worrying that in all the mosques i have been to.. people follow the sunnah to the letter yet few have finished the quran let alone re-read it many times... i have read the quran about 40+ times yet some men.. who dress far more orthodox than me.. 30 years older than me.. who make more dua than me.. have never finished it..

it is a strange paradox.. the sunnah makes islam an upbringing and a lifestyle, not actually submitting your will to allah.

why quranically are jews no longer the chosen people...???? for making judaism a breed and not a religion..

those who do not accept the past are doomed to repeat it..

Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was a great and pious man.. he did not deserve a book of chinese whispers to be called "his path" to be written 200 years after his death and constantly contradicting the quran

it is one of the perculiar ways of sunni orthodoxy..

just like when they praise hussan and hussain. makes me go WTF?

who burned down the house of fatima.. (sorry)

[c0de]

Ironically, It seems Muslims end up ignoring the really crucial hadiths... like the one in which the Prophet warns us that Muslims will end up repeating the same mistakes of the Jews and Christians before us.

[farhan]

@ Radunzel

they read hadith, not sunnah. You cant read sunnah anyways. They get glimpses of sunnah from hadith, with some heavy corruption.

[Radunzel]

sorry i meant it as a paraphrase for al muslim and al bukhari sorry should be so generic apologys

[dailogue is the best]

salam c0de,

I miss the forums, and all the sisters and the brothers. I was really busy with my work. But now, there is Eid holiday, that i will try to exploit to chat a little bit with you.


Your thread is very important, c0de, and i enjoyed reading it. Yet, I differ with a lot of details with.

Anti-christ is a person as narrated by many hadiths of the prophet Muhamed peace be upon him. There is very detailed description of him in many reliable hadiths.

As far as I see, there is no contradiction between the Quran and the Hadith. The fact that the Quran doesn’t mention any fact about anti-christ doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t believe in hadiths which talk about anti-christ. The five prayers aren’t mentioned in the Quran, and without the Hadiths we wouldn’t know how to pray. God says in the Quran that whatever the prophet Muhamed ask us to do, we should do it. And whatever he ask us to leave, we should leave it. I know this may open the door to some who use some “weak” hadith to justify some irrational behaviors. But, we should never ever depend on the Quran alone.

Yet, I found that the thread is presenting a new insight to the issue of anti-christ: system. For me, I agree with the hadiths which talk about anti-christ as a person, and I believe too that Jesus peace be upon him will come down to earth again. The issue that he was dead or not isn’t something to worry about. God may resurrect him again to come down to earth again to kill anti-christ. Also, the issue of Muhamed peace be upon him being the last prophet or not is very solved. How? Jesus peace be upon him is going to be ressurcted. He wouldnt be a new prophet. He is the prophet who was sent before Muhamed peace be upon him , and thats why Muhamed peace be upon him is/ will be considered as the seal of prophets.There would be no new holy book, and no new teachings as the Quran is perserved to keep God's teachings all alive.


My point of view may seem very traditional. It is what I believe in. I welcome any comments that may enrich our discussion and widen our knowledge, and please forgive me if I may be late in replying.

Salam / peace

[c0de]

Good to see you back DIB, w'salam

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

salam c0de,

I miss the forums, and all the sisters and the brothers. I was really busy with my work. But now, there is Eid holiday, that i will try to exploit to chat a little bit with you.

Here in Canada you hardly notice Eid at all... which sux.

Anti-christ is a person as narrated by many hadiths of the prophet Muhamed peace be upon him. There is very detailed description of him in many reliable hadiths.

A detailed description does not rule out the possibility of metaphor DIB. Remember Daniel's vision in the Bible? A very detailed description, yet all of them were symbolic.

As far as I see, there is no contradiction between the Quran and the Hadith.

I guess this is where we both will have to agree to disagree.
You say that because Jesus PBUH would be ressurected, that means that
he would not be granted extended life, because he would basically be
resuming his life from the point that he died, I presume?

As far as I understand it, Jesus PBUH was an ordinary mortal. And as
was subject to the very same laws that everyone else is subject to.

I also believe that the idea that he will come back and save us from the
anti-christ actually makes us more vulnerable to the reality of the
anti-christ in the form of the "system"... which in a sense, is much more
dangerous then any anti-christ in a human form. Since this system, is
invisible, and most do not even recognize its existence.

Allah knows best... besides, as long as we all take care of our own
iman, it doesn't really matter much anyway. The power of the Dajjal,
in whatever form, can not overpower the power of faith. I guess that
is what we need to worry about more... fighting our own demons.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by c0de

Good to see you back DIB, w'salam

Thank you, brother. May God bless you.

Here in Canada you hardly notice Eid at all... which sux.

Actually, you are losing a lot by lacking Eid manifestations.......

A detailed description does not rule out the possibility of metaphor DIB. Remember Daniel's vision in the Bible? A very detailed description, yet all of them were symbolic.

The prophet Muhammed peace be upon him tried to make his sayings very clear, and he used to talk to people according to their level of understanding. I dont think that the prophet Muhamed peace be upon him would have described a system "as one blinded eye", and " between his eyes, it is written K.F.R". I am open to new interpretation, but I see the literal one more closer to me.

I guess this is where we both will have to agree to disagree.
You say that because Jesus PBUH would be ressurected, that means that
he would not be granted extended life, because he would basically be
resuming his life from the point that he died, I presume?

No, this not what i meant, c0de. In the Quran, we find the following verse which says: "3:46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." And the right word for maturity is "old" as "kahlan" in Arabic means old. Some Muslim scholars think of this as the second coming of Jesus peace be upon him when he will speak to people in his old times. Since it has happened that Jesus peace be upon him spoke to the people from the crib, it will come too that he will speak to them when he will be an old man. Yet, I am not saying that he would be ressurected to resume his life the point he died, or that he isnt mortal. no. But, God always makes His words come true, by saying "be", and it "be"

I also believe that the idea that he will come back and save us from the anti-christ actually makes us more vulnerable to the reality of the
anti-christ in the form of the "system"... which in a sense, is much more
dangerous then any anti-christ in a human form. Since this system, is
invisible, and most do not even recognize its existence.

Even if he would be in a human form, his "fitna" would be so great, especially for those of weak iman. That's why, the Prophet peace be upon him teaches us to say after tachahud the following duae :"My Lord, I ask your protection from torment of the Hell, torment of the grave the trials in life time and after death, and from the impostor Antichrist."

Allah knows best... besides, as long as we all take care of our own
iman, it doesn't really matter much anyway. The power of the Dajjal,
in whatever form, can not overpower the power of faith. I guess that
is what we need to worry about more... fighting our own demons.

Very true indeed,c0de. What we should focus upon is to do goog and do good, and strive for God's cause.

[dailogue is the best]

ALso, c0de, dont forget that the Quran mentions the story of the people of the cave who slept for 300 hundred years, and also the story of the owner of the donkey whom God made him dead for 100 years, then He raised him again