The Fall happened in two stages

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by winner08

Thomas, do you believe that God is all knowing.

Yes.

Originally Posted by winner08

That God knows the (end) from the (beginning)?

Yes.

Originally Posted by winner08

do you believe that God has foreknowledge of all things?

Yes.

Originally Posted by winner08

Then if so, the mess is not entirely on us. Yes we make the choices. God however creates the circumstances.

So that's God's fault? You blame God for everything bad that happens?

This is nonsense. This is like saying if you don't want the kid to steal sweets then don't put them on display. This is like saying it was her own fault the woman got raped because she is beautiful.

We make the choices. God knows what choices we will make, but He does not make us make them — God does not choose for us — we have the ability to make the right or the wrong choice, and we are told what is right and what is wrong.

Originally Posted by winner08

It was their choice, but it was God who made the circumstances as needed for adam and eve to be tempted and sin.

Yes, by making them free to choose as they will. How can man be free if the only thing he can do is what he's told?

Originally Posted by winner08

God knew before hand that adam and eve would sin.

But that does not mean He willed them to sin. You assume that because knows everything, He wills everything ... that is not the case.

Originally Posted by winner08

Because if not and God made us spiritualy strong Then why would we need God.

Silly argument. Doesn't matter how strong man is, He can't live without God. That's your pride talking.

Originally Posted by winner08

Why would we need to be saved? God made man spiritualy weak so that we must depend on Him for our salvation.

That's also a false argument. Man's good is in God, so even perfect man, as Adam and Eve were, still had their end, their good, in God. Perfection does not mean no further need of God, perfection means understanding that we exist because God wills it.

Originally Posted by winner08

You said that we continue to insist that God doesn't have any say in the matter, it's up to us to determine our own salvation. Yes that is so ture.

That is not what I say, and it's not what I believe. I believe God saves us, we cannot save ourselves. Christ said "without me, you can do nothing" (John 5:15). I believe we co-operate in that, but I do not believe we are the architects of our own salvation.

Originally Posted by winner08

Man does not want to admit that he has to depend on anybody for anything. I believe it is called pride. We hate to admit we are weak. That we need God. It goes against our nature. Do you believe this???

Yes I do, but I do not believe God is cruel, vindictive or spiteful. I do not believe God is a liar. I do not believe God plays tricks. I do not believe God made us to punish us for His pleasure — I believe we have brought this upon ourselves, it was not the will of God that man should fall, any more than it is the will of God that we should suffer in hell.

I do not believe God is evil, or the source of evil.

Thomas

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Yes.


Yes.


Yes.


So that's God's fault? You blame God for everything bad that happens?

Comment: I guess you just cant comperhend what I just said. I said that God creates the cicumstances we find ourselves into at anytime in any moment. WE, WE make our on choices. did you understand what I said Thomas. Stop putting words in my mouth I never once said I blame God for anything. read my statment again. God's circumstances. Our choices. got it or do I have to writ bigger??

This is nonsense. This is like saying if you don't want the kid to steal sweets then don't put them on display. This is like saying it was her own fault the woman got raped because she is beautiful.

We make the choices. God knows what choices we will make, but He does not make us make them — God does not choose for us — we have the ability to make the right or the wrong choice, and we are told what is right and what is wrong.

This is what I have been saying the whole time. Once again Thomas I said God ;creates the circumstances and WE, QWE make our own choices right or wrong. God does not make the choice for us. Man is this too hard for you to understand. Why are you twisting my words??


Yes, by making them free to choose as they will. How can man be free if the only thing he can do is what he's told?

Comment: Thomas where did I say this?? That man only can do is what he's told. BTW I did say man makes choices right or wrong.


But that does not mean He willed them to sin. You assume that because knows everything, He wills everything ... that is not the case.

Comment: Yes God's intention was for adam and eve to sin. to open their eyes so they would know good and evil. And God used satan to do it. Why is this so hard for you to believe?? You don't think it was nessery for us to experience evil? What we just go around all day everyday just knowing and doing good? never knowing what pain and suffering and evil is all about.


Silly argument. Doesn't matter how strong man is, He can't live without God. That's your pride talking.

Comment I was being sarcastic. God made man spiritually weak so we would have to depend on God for our spiritual strenth and our salvation


That's also a false argument. Man's good is in God, so even perfect man, as Adam and Eve were, still had their end, their good, in God. Perfection does not mean no further need of God, perfection means understanding that we exist because God wills it.

Comment" What are you talking about, even (perfect man), AS adam and eve. perfect Now I know that nowhere in the whole bible does it say they were perfect. I don;t know where you got that one from.

That is not what I say, and it's not what I believe. I believe God saves us, we cannot save ourselves. Christ said "without me, you can do nothing" (John 5:15). I believe we co-operate in that, but I do not believe we are the architects of our own salvation.

comment: Finnally we agree on something.


Yes I do, but I do not believe God is cruel, vindictive or spiteful. I do not believe God is a liar. I do not believe God plays tricks. I do not believe God made us to punish us for His pleasure — I believe we have brought this upon ourselves, it was not the will of God that man should fall, any more than it is the will of God that we should suffer in hell.

I do not believe God is evil, or the source of evil.

Thomas

Ok let's take this one at a time.

You do not believe that God is cruel, vindictive or spiteful.
Cruel. If you believe in hell where God will barbaque man, billions of men women and children because they was not born again then that god is cruel.
vengence is MINE sayith the LORD. I think that say it all.
Spiteful no He is not spiteful. that is man who is spiteful.
alright one more we agree upon. (lier) He ia not
that's 3 things we agree upon. (plays tricks)
#4 agree punish just for the heck of it. No i don't believe it. God never never punishish just to punish. God chastise and or punish us inorder to teach us . Never just to punish.
Here we go again. No it was not the will of God that man would fall. These are terrible wordings Man never faild.It was and is God's plan from the start. For man to know good and evil. it just that simple. God intended for man to know theses things. man could not go through his life never knowing what suffering was or pain. Why? Did not Jesus go through all these terrible thing? So if it was nessery for the Son of God to know what pain and suffering was by actually going through it, why not a puny man. Why would God NOT have man to suffer and to know pain and loss. These are great character buliders. without the hard times how would you ever learn to overcome. Does not Jesus say one must overcome this world and stay strong to the end, overcome, overcome what? good, nice, easy and all the good thing in life? No overcome the bad, hard, evil ways of this world.
NO it is not the will of God for us to suffer in hell. There is no hell like you believe. that is annother topic.
Did you read the old test. probable not. If you do you will notice that God is a very vengfull and angry God at times and He uses the Isrealites to wipe out and wipe then off the face of the earth, cities and towns that they are to occupied. God told saul at one point before a battle to kill every man women and child and all their livestock and smash every idol and religionist symbols. That is just one time they had many battle that the Lord told the isrealites to kill everybody and everything. I will give you chapter and verse later.

missed one, I agree again ,this is good I do not believe that God is evil or the source of evil. How many times must I say this, God created evil. Satan. satan is Gods source of evil and Satan is evil, NOT GOD
I have never said such a thing as to God being evil. God cannot be evil but yet he uses evil to His purpose for the outcom of His plan. His perfect plan. God created evil. God created Satan the devil. God uses these things just like He uses the good and loveing things all for His purpose. What so hard about that. Please don't mix my words and say I said that God IS evil. That's so wrong. Thanks thomas for you very helpful and your wisdom on these subject matters. Thanks again.
Have a great day. I'm signning off.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by winner08

How many times must I say this, God created evil.

So God is evil then.

Not my God, thank you.

Thomas

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

. But I think it was as you say, the shame, the blame, the alienation and the pride that came right after.

I would say the decision to emulate divine power ("the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods") was an expression of pride and alienation. I can see where the issue of blame and shame would arise as aftereffects.

I personally think the state of mind (pride and alienation) is more important than the singular act of disobedience.

Originally Posted by Thomas

So that's God's fault? You blame God for everything bad that happens?

G-d created finite creatures who are prone to misunderstandings about their possibilities. I fully believe it was His intention that mortals experience a career of evolvement through which these misunderstandings are overcome.

[Nick_A]

Hi Soleil

So according to you the fruit they ate was the ........
I am not sure I understand what you are saying

What is the knowledge of Good and Evil? For us it has become purely subjective and largely conditioned by our environment. But the Tree of the Know;ledge of good and Evil was in the garden Adam was working in. This means the tree wasn't there for solely for his benefit but was there for a universal purpose.from which Man could benefit. What do you think objective good and evil is? subjective good and evil for Man would no longer exist if Man were destroyed but objective good and evil exists independent of Man. What could that be?

The Tree has branches which are the expressions of the trunk. The fruit or seed of this knowledge opens a person to it as it grows within them. This is not referring to a physical process but rather a psychological one where Man becomes aware of objective knowledge. It surely isn't bad.

Christendom has twisted the meaning of the following which has resulted in a lot of unnecessary emotional problems.

Genesis 3

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

The beginnings of the inner knowledge of objective good and evil is the realization of our nothingness, our psychological nakedness.

The fig tree in scripture represents the good of the natural so Adam and Eve first try to deal with their nothingness by what the leaves offer.

Unfortunately its been turned into a sex issue for secularism but sex is a process that is neither objectively good or evil.

Are you saying that you believe in two Gods ?

No. there is the Godhead outside time and space and what could be called "god's within creation. Meister Eckhart does not call himself the Godhead but is referring to being "in the image."

"When I came out from God, that is, into multiplicity, then all proclaimed, 'There is a God' (i.e., the personal God, Creator of all things). Now this cannot make me blessed, for hereby I realize myself as creature. But in the breaking through (i.e. through all limitations), I am more than all creatures, I am neither God nor creature; I am that which I was and shall remain evermore. There I receive a thrust which carries me above all angels. By this sudden touch I am become so rich that God (i.e., God as opposed to the Godhead) is not sufficient for me, so far as he is only God and in all his divine works. For in this breaking through I perceive what God and I are in common. There I am what I was. There I neither increase nor decrease. For there I am the immovable which moves all things. Here man has won again what he is eternally (i.e., in his essential being) and ever shall be. Here God (i.e., the Godhead) is received into the soul."

"Two gods" means a linear equality. Gods and the Godhead are an important distinction in objective quality.

I believe that it was a spiritual death not a physical death. My understanding is that people would risk their life for love' The force of love is so strong that God gave them a commandment

Is knowledge of love the knowledge of objective good and evil. Are you saying that Adam did not love God before the fall?

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Thomas

So God is evil then.

Not my God, thank you.

Thomas

Man , Thomas< How many times must I say this? It is so very simple to understand. What's up?? God IS NOT EVIL. I never said it was so either.
God did create evil. But He is not evil. I formed the light and created darkness, I make peace and created calamity I The Lord do all these things. Lets see if I can give you an example. Ok I can't, why? because this is just so easy to see and understand. It is a plain and simple. God is the creator of Satan, and satan is the evil one. so is God evil; NO< not a bit. God creates man, man sins is God responsible NO, why? because we make our choices, just as you said. we make our own choices. If we chose to go and sin then it is on our head. Not the Lords. Come on man I know you get this. There is some foolish people out here but I don't think your one of them.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by winner08

How many times must I say this? It is so very simple to understand. What's up?? God IS NOT EVIL. I never said it was so either.

But you say God created evil. So God is the source of evil. There would be no evil unless God willed there to be evil ... so the cause, source and origin of evil is in God. I don't see how you can say what you say and not understand what it means.

Originally Posted by winner08

It is a plain and simple. God is the creator of Satan, and satan is the evil one. so is God evil; NO< not a bit.

No. If you send an assassin to kill someone, is not the person who hired the assassin as guilty as the assassin.

God created the angels, and an angel fell, whom we now call Satan — but that angel was created good by God, not created evil by God.

Originally Posted by winner08

God creates man, man sins is God responsible NO, why? because we make our choices, just as you said.

That's my point.

The angel chose to disobey God ... God did not create an 'angel of disobedience' ... the sin rises in the angel, not in God. It was the angel's free will to choose other than what God wills that introduced evil into the spiritual world.

Then Adam and Eve chose to disobey God ... God did not create them to disobey Him ... the sin rises with them, not with God. It was man's free will to choose other than what God wills, suggested by an evil angel and a liar, that introduced evil into the material world — but the sin is man's.

Their choice was an expression of their freedom. It's result was the realisation, and the actualisation, of evil ...

But there is no evil in the Mind of God for God to will.

That God foreknew that Adam would disobey Him does not mean it was God's will that Adam disobey Him. Rather it points to God's mercy that He allows his creation to make a mistake, and then offers to help him make it right.

But if you say God knew what they would do, and willed them to do it, then you are saying God is the author and accomplice in an evil act, and every evil act, that flows from that first evil.

If God willed Adam and Eve to disobey Him, then God wills the murderer to kill, the rapist to rape, the child abuser ... d'you see? All error, all evil, all suffering, flows from that first decision.

It was our decision, not God's.

Thomas

[Netti-Netti]

Might as well get it from the Catholic Bible:

formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord that do all these things.

That's from Isaiah 45:1

Historically, there have been attempts to minimize the Creator's role with respect to evil, including suggestions to the effect that He allows it, but dos not actively create it.

St. Thomas Aquinas is frequently cited in these kinds of discussions. Basically, if G-d did not allow evil, then there would be no existential space for good. I alluded to this concept at the end of my previous post.

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Might as well get it from the Catholic Bible:

formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord that do all these things.

That's from Isaiah 45:1

This only means "disaster" not moral "evil". . . .this means like what God had threatened to Nineva. . .God will bring a calamity if the people don't repent, etc.

This is a hebrew to english translation problem. . .but most modern version (such as the NIV) will translate it to mean "disaster."

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Thomas

But you say God created evil. So God is the source of evil. There would be no evil unless God willed there to be evil ... so the cause, source and origin of evil is in God. I don't see how you can say what you say and not understand what it means.


No. If you send an assassin to kill someone, is not the person who hired the assassin as guilty as the assassin.

God created the angels, and an angel fell, whom we now call Satan — but that angel was created good by God, not created evil by God.


That's my point.

The angel chose to disobey God ... God did not create an 'angel of disobedience' ... the sin rises in the angel, not in God. It was the angel's free will to choose other than what God wills that introduced evil into the spiritual world.

Then Adam and Eve chose to disobey God ... God did not create them to disobey Him ... the sin rises with them, not with God. It was man's free will to choose other than what God wills, suggested by an evil angel and a liar, that introduced evil into the material world — but the sin is man's.

Their choice was an expression of their freedom. It's result was the realisation, and the actualisation, of evil ...

But there is no evil in the Mind of God for God to will.

That God foreknew that Adam would disobey Him does not mean it was God's will that Adam disobey Him. Rather it points to God's mercy that He allows his creation to make a mistake, and then offers to help him make it right.

But if you say God knew what they would do, and willed them to do it, then you are saying God is the author and accomplice in an evil act, and every evil act, that flows from that first evil.

If God willed Adam and Eve to disobey Him, then God wills the murderer to kill, the rapist to rape, the child abuser ... d'you see? All error, all evil, all suffering, flows from that first decision.

It was our decision, not God's.

Thomas

Thomas you have some very good replys to my questions and I wish I could get to responed tonight, but since I look up most passages in scripture withinn the bible It takes me a long time to ansewer and then I want to make sure I have the correct versus down in order that I may add something helpfull and truth full to the subject were discussing. So I read your reply and I will respond tomorrow in the am. Anyway thanks for the great conversation and the indept study i must do to keep up have a good night and a great day tomorrow. see ya.