The Fall happened in two stages

[soleil10]

First stage: Lucifer seduced Eve. When Eve united with the archangel (in spirit), she felt a sense of fear, which came from a guilty conscience.

Second stage: Eve seduced Adam who then fell too.

Do you agree ?

[wil]

Originally Posted by soleil10

First stage: Lucifer seduced Eve. When Eve united with the archangel (in spirit), she felt a sense of fear, which came from a guilty conscience.

Second stage: Eve seduced Adam who then fell too.

Do you agree ?

I believe it to be myth and metaphor...what does the unification church indicate there?

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by wil

I believe it to be myth and metaphor...what does the unification church indicate there?

What do you mean by a myth and metaphor ?

[wil]

Originally Posted by soleil10

What do you mean by a myth and metaphor ?

The children in that neck of the woods were no different from the children in the Americas, Asia, Africa, Australia etc. So why, when, where, how were probably asked repeatedly as they are today...

Hence every area came up with their answer, their creation story, myth, metaphor. The garden, the fall, are explanations to satisfy...

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by wil

The children in that neck of the woods were no different from the children in the Americas, Asia, Africa, Australia etc. So why, when, where, how were probably asked repeatedly as they are today...

Hence every area came up with their answer, their creation story, myth, metaphor. The garden, the fall, are explanations to satisfy...

I do believe in the fall

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by soleil10

First stage: Lucifer seduced Eve. When Eve united with the archangel (in spirit), she felt a sense of fear, which came from a guilty conscience.

Second stage: Eve seduced Adam who then fell too.

Do you agree ?

Nope ... I think you've missed an absolutely blindingly fantastic point! I think you've missed the metaphysical meat of the matter! I think you're making something out of nothing, and missed what's staring you in the face! I think ... I think ... I think you really don't wanna know what I think ...

Consider:
"And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat."
Up until this point, everything in the garden is rosey, as the saying goes. She is not aware of anything different, and nor is he ... until he eats as well:
"And the eyes of them both were opened"
So nothing happened until Adam ate! The story doesn't say, 'her eyes were opened, and then he ate, and his were too' — there is a profound dimension to the fact that the sin is a collective one, involving, at that time, the entire human race, not any particular individual.

"... and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons... "
So the Primordial Couple lost that interior vision of each other ... the cosmological order had been lost before they even realised the mystical import of their communal fall! They're hiding from each other ... in effect lying to each other ... and God's not even on the scene yet!

"... And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise..."
Why? Why hide unless you've lost sight of who God is? Why hide from the deity who delights in your presence? Why hide from He who gave you everything? Why hide from He who said, 'in the whole world, you can have anything you want, do anything you like, except one thing' ... ?

"... And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou?"
Can't you see? Not "You wait til I get hold of you, you little *******!" ... but "where are you?" Why? Because He was still offering them the chance to say, "Actually, Lord, I've made the most frightful mistake ... "

But no ... the very thing man didn't do, was say, "We ****ed up" — instead we made excuse, and blamed everybody in sight ... and so the tragedy unfolds.

It's a mess entirely of our own making, and we continue to hold everyone and everything else responsible. It's an offence against God, and we continue to insist that God doesn't have a say in the matter, it's up to me to determine my own salvation.

Thomas

[lunamoth]

Good post Thomas, and interesting timing. I just was talking about this elsewhere, where another person was saying that the disobedience was the fall. But I think it was as you say, the shame, the blame, the alienation and the pride that came right after. The choices we made...the moment we were able.

[Bishadi]

how about;

the metaphor shares that choice was born.

the day awareness began

meaning; in the beginnning man was 'in the garden' instinctive and naked with no self as being a choice

then a day came and a choice was made, words were born as articulation evolved

the species became aware of its existence (man was born in the image of God)

the figs share that self and vanity began

man left the garden by choice

man began to think they were above nature (left the sight of God)

the fall of man was based on the selfish isolation from nature (God)

BUT, the capacity of awareness is how choice lives.

And 'of choice' mankind can experience compassion and Love

mankind can know good and evil

mankind can create and 'support life to continue' by choice

mankind can give of himself and live forever in what HE does, by choice

Perhaps read what genesis/quoting God says

22And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

and if you think about it, here is God stating the greatness of the progression.

as well notice mankind is still upon the earth, so in this context, Adam and Eve are living 'to the ages'......

and to just look around, mankind can cause/create 'good and evil'

as well each of us can contribute of our time and energy for life to continue, by choice

Mankind did not fall, mankind evolved from the instinctive existence of what we all know as nature (the garden).

perhaps that analogy can assist thinking and applicability to the 'seal'

how many more need to be 'opened'?

[soleil10]

Is the fruit a literal fruit or is it a symbol ?

How could a God of love, the parent of mankind, make such an attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his children and cause them to fall ?

Jesus said in Matthew 15:11 "....not what goes in the mouth defiles a man,,," How then could something edible cause the fall ?

Woud a God of Love create a fruit of good and evil to test man, so mercilessly at to ultimately cause his death, merely to see whether or not manwould obey His word.

The fact that they ate the fruit despite having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it was even greater than their desire for life.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by soleil10

Is the fruit a literal fruit or is it a symbol ?

the whole story is symbolic

How could a God of love, the parent of mankind, make such an attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his children and cause them to fall ?

again, you missed the whole concept of what the story mean

'curious george' ......... was not a real monkey but lots of good lessons to learn

Jesus said in Matthew 15:11 "....not what goes in the mouth defiles a man,,," How then could something edible cause the fall ?

wow!

now matt is being used to define genesis.... what's the number to your pharmacist?

go eat some peyote, a whole button, then after you get up off the floor, ask yourself.... "did what I eat, just kick the sh.t out of me?"

bet your whole life changes from that one event?

Woud a God of Love create a fruit of good and evil to test man, so mercilessly at to ultimately cause his death, merely to see whether or not manwould obey His word.

The fact that they ate the fruit despite having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it was even greater than their desire for life.

If you really read the story, it suggests God said DON"T, and that they would die

then the 'serpant' says, 'surely you will not die'

then they eat it, and get kicked out of eden

then god praises; 'man is like us'..... 'to live to the ages' and then gives them clothing...

go figure?

read the story BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Genesis 3;;

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

again, you missed the whole concept of what the story mean

now matt is being used to define genesis.... what's the number to your pharmacist?

If you really read the story,

read the story BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Genesis 3;;

I did not appreciate the tone of your comment. To treat me as being dumb is not conducive to further discussion. It is very unfortunate.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by soleil10

Is the fruit a literal fruit or is it a symbol ?

How could a God of love, the parent of mankind, make such an attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his children and cause them to fall ?

Jesus said in Matthew 15:11 "....not what goes in the mouth defiles a man,,," How then could something edible cause the fall ?

Woud a God of Love create a fruit of good and evil to test man, so mercilessly at to ultimately cause his death, merely to see whether or not manwould obey His word.

The fact that they ate the fruit despite having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it was even greater than their desire for life.

Soleil10

Is the fruit a literal fruit or is it a symbol ?

A fruit is a seed which has the potential to become the tree it came from. Eating the seed of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil allows it to grow within ones being.

At the stage of their development, they weren't burdened by defending conditioned subjective interpretations of good and evil but rather this was the seed of the knowledge of OBJECTIVE good and evil. Being caught up with subjective good and evil, we rarely ever contemplate objective good and evil.

How could a God of love, the parent of mankind, make such an attractive fruit and leave it in a place where it could be eaten by his children and cause them to fall ?

Perhaps God that created Man is not the same as the LORD God that created Adam and Eve. Maybe the fall was not the result of some sort of test but necessary for a cosmic purpose at the time.

The fact that they ate the fruit despite having been told that they would die, indicates that the fruit must represent something so extremely stimulating that their desire for it was even greater than their desire for life.

What does Genesis mean by "die"? Does it mean death as we normally refer to our deaths? Perhaps knowledge of objective good and evil that leads to awakening to human meaning and purpose is stimulating. Jesus tried to awaken those sensitive to human meaning and purpose along with objective good and evil. What changed between the time of the fall and Jesus arrival on Earth?

Perhaps the account of the Fall has layers of meaning. It can then be taken superficially and also become a tool for contemplation that can open one to profound psychological meaning. Real Art can do this.

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

At the stage of their development, they weren't burdened by defending conditioned subjective interpretations of good and evil but rather this was the seed of the knowledge of OBJECTIVE good and evil. Being caught up with subjective good and evil, we rarely ever contemplate objective good and evil.

So according to you the fruit they ate was the ........
I am not sure I understand what you are saying

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Perhaps God that created Man is not the same as the LORD God that created Adam and Eve. Maybe the fall was not the result of some sort of test but necessary for a cosmic purpose at the time.

Are you saying that you believe in two Gods ?

Originally Posted by Nick_A

What does Genesis mean by "die"? Does it mean death as we normally refer to our deaths? Perhaps knowledge of objective good and evil that leads to awakening to human meaning and purpose is stimulating. Jesus tried to awaken those sensitive to human meaning and purpose along with objective good and evil. What changed between the time of the fall and Jesus arrival on Earth?

I believe that it was a spiritual death not a physical death. My understanding is that people would risk their life for love' The force of love is so strong that God gave them a commandment

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Nope ... I think you've missed an absolutely blindingly fantastic point! I think you've missed the metaphysical meat of the matter! I think you're making something out of nothing, and missed what's staring you in the face! I think ... I think ... I think you really don't wanna know what I think ...

Consider:
"And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat."
Up until this point, everything in the garden is rosey, as the saying goes. She is not aware of anything different, and nor is he ... until he eats as well:
"And the eyes of them both were opened"
So nothing happened until Adam ate! The story doesn't say, 'her eyes were opened, and then he ate, and his were too' — there is a profound dimension to the fact that the sin is a collective one, involving, at that time, the entire human race, not any particular individual.

Question Thomas: What do you mean when you say involving, at (that time)? the entire human race. who are the entire human race. It was adam and eve and no other humans at that time and place. the sin happen before cain and able and any other humans were on the earth.

"... and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons... "
So the Primordial Couple lost that interior vision of each other ... the cosmological order had been lost before they even realised the mystical import of their communal fall! They're hiding from each other ... in effect lying to each other ... and God's not even on the scene yet!

Question: They were hiding from each other?
No they were hiding from God.
Gen 3:10 So he (adam) said I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid ecause I was (naked), and I hid myself,. ight there this scripture tells you excactly why and who they were hiding from. Not themeselves.
BTW God is and was and will be always on the scene. Always.

"... And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise..."
Why? Why hide unless you've lost sight of who God is? Why hide from the deity who delights in your presence? Why hide from He who gave you everything? Why hide from He who said, 'in the whole world, you can have anything you want, do anything you like, except one thing' ... ?

Question: Why hide unless you lost sight of who God is?
Gen 3 10 Adam and eve never for one second lost sight of who God is. they hide because not of they lost sight but because they were afraid. afraid of what afraid because they were naked, Gen 3:10 I was afraid because I was naked and I hid myself. Do you believe in what the word of the Lord says (scriptture)?? right here in the simplest words. afraid/naked.


"... And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou?"
Can't you see? Not "You wait til I get hold of you, you little *******!" ... but "where are you?" Why? Because He was still offering them the chance to say, "Actually, Lord, I've made the most frightful mistake ... "

Question; God asked them where are you? and you say it is because God was giving them a chance to say actually Lord I made the most frightful mistake. Again lets see what the Word of God says. Gen 3:9-10 Then the Lord called to adam and said to him, Where are you? (10) so he said, I heard YUour voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked, and I hid myself. Nowhere does the Lord meantion anything about giving them a chance to confess. or admit they made a mistake.


But no ... the very thing man didn't do, was say, "We ****ed up" — instead we made excuse, and blamed everybody in sight ... and so the tragedy unfolds.

It's a mess entirely of our own making, and we continue to hold everyone and everything else responsible. It's an offence against God, and we continue to insist that God doesn't have a say in the matter, it's up to me to determine my own salvation.



Thomas

Question: Thomas you said that it;s a mess entirely of our own making.
No not entirely of our own making. and that it's an offence against God. No, No, No. Thomas, do you believe that God is all knowing. That God knows the (end) from the (beginning)? do you believe that God has foreknowledge of all things? Then if so, the mess is not entirely on us. Yes we make the choices. God however creates the circumstances. adam and eve found themselves into. and adam and eve chose to take the fruit and then knew good and evil. It was their choice ,but it was God who made the circumstances as needed for adam and eve to be tempted and sin. Not satan. Satan did not creat the circumstances. Satan was the insturment that God used in order to influence them to sin. Satan did not creat the tree of life and good and evil. It wasn't satan who put the tree in the mist (middle of the garden) It wasn't satan who made the tree most appealing to the sight and smell of the humans. God knew before hand that adam and eve would sin. Remember God is never shocked or suprised by anything puny man does. God made man. He made man spiritually weak. Why did He do this? Because if not and Gopd made us spiritualy strong Then why would we need God. Why would we need to be saved? God made man spiritualy weak so that we must depend on Him for our salvation.
You said that we continue to insist that God doesn't have any say in the matter, it's up to us to determine our own salvation. Yes that is so ture. Man does not want to admit that he has to depend on anybody for anything. I believe it is called pride. We hate to admit we are weak. That we need God. It goes against our nature. Do you believe this???

[winner08]

thanks Thomas for your insite. I love our little chats. This is good for the soul. It is good to have discussions. This is a good way to see each others side and maby learn sonething from it. Even though we disagree on most things there is still a place to understand between us.