The final answer: I don't know.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

How many areas of teachings or lessons in 'faith' all have to lead to one answer, "I don't know'?

Actually in the orthodox traditions, none.

Whether man accepts the answers, is a whole other question.

The prevalent philosophy of the West, shaped by the Enlightenment, was founded on an erroneous assumption — "the triumph of art over nature" (Novum Organum Francis Bacon) (that science could explain and tame all nature), and continues to run its course, in the pursuit of 'progress' and 'freedom', even though the growing weight of evidence suggests somewhere, someone went wrong.

"The entrance into the Kingdom of man, founded on the sciences, being not much other than the entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven, where into none may enter except as a little child." Novum Organum Francis Bacon.

Above is a typical formative psychology of the Enlightenment. Here we can see that science has replaced faith ... the belief that science will put man back in the Garden of Paradise, or rather, in the absence of Eden, science will create a new Paradise for man ... he no longer has any need of God.

Science, by occupying the space that faith traditionally occupied, marginalised religion and reduced it to something private and other-worldly, something irrelevant for the world.

The reliance of science as the source of man's happiness means an anthropology in which the idea of 'beatitude', 'peace', 'wellbeing' are solely dependent upon material means ...

For many westerners, the uptake of exotic Asiatic doctrines and practices with the implicit promise of a self-serving short-cut to bliss, nirvana, satori, etc., has been described as spiritual narcissism, in fact auto-eroticisme was the term deployed.

Man has been reduced to a material consumer ... and as a First World European in his 50s, I can still recall the political assertions that, by the new millenium, we will be freed from labour by our wonderful technologies ... that leisure time would be our major occupation ... now leisure is another 'industry' and here we are, working harder than ever, my kids working harder at school than I ever did to attain apparently less (their qualifications have become meaningless in the marketplace) ... and I'm not sure, the way things are going, that they will be alive at my age ...

No more energy is spent in any department of modern life than the pursuit of the chimera of the self ... "I" am the fetish object of every modern religion.

As long as man exercises his option to say "I don't know" without obligation to find out, as long as he insists his own ignorance is more valid than truth, because it's the authentic expression of his autonomous freedom ... he betrays himself, and his seed ...

Thomas

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Example that quote a FOOL can be counted as wise for holding his tongue (or what not...) See?

lol, the tongue is firmly attached in the mouth. There really is no need to hold it, it will not fall out.

What bridge is that? And I shall tell you. I already have my own meaning for it, but I want to check to see if there is something I am missing.... Such as historical... Folklore or art or so on...

It is a meaningless bridge, a bridge to nowhere.

[17th Angel]

So are you saying you don't know anything about the bridge? Just that it leads no where? If so then you haven't really looked for it's meaning.... I could grab a tool from a metal workers and look at it without knowing what it was I could say, no idea what this is... It is meaningless.... But I have failed to look......

I think meaningless is a blindness...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

By the way that was a quote from Angel heart (original one).

I like how you did that...

Sorry for 'delay' been talking to grey in the smoking thread, seems a big hard time for her at the moment and her dear friend.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Thomas

As long as man exercises his option to say "I don't know" without obligation to find out, as long as he insists his own ignorance is more valid than truth, because it's the authentic expression of his autonomous freedom ... he betrays himself, and his seed ...

Thanks for the Francis Bacon. I agree that "as long as" people remain deliberately ignorant it is to their detriment. Ignorance itself though is no crime nor sin. And the "seeker's mind" is far more productive practically, spiritually, pragmatically and diplomatically.

There are things worth knowing. There are things not worth expending effort towards. And there are situational and specific things that in one context may be required, and in another little more than trivia.

Do I have a need for the knowledge to pilot a fighter plane? No, and it would be foolish of me to pursue such knowledge beyond mere curiousity; I will never in this life pilot a fighter aircraft. But to someone somewhere that knowledge is crucial and indispensible. I am being deliberately ignorant, but I am using logic to determine the value of that knowledge in my life. That is practical wisdom in action.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Alex P

I think meaningless is a blindness...

I disagree. I think it is a value judgement.

I place no value on some pretty little spoiled drug addict's escapades being paraded in the tabloids and on "entertainment" tv. Some people deem such drivel as meaningful. Enough so that the business keeps feeding them more brain rot.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I disagree. I think it is a value judgement.

I place no value on some pretty little spoiled drug addict's escapades being paraded in the tabloids and on "entertainment" tv. Some people deem such drivel as meaningful. Enough so that the business keeps feeding them more brain rot.

Sure there are those that love that kinda stuff, I do not.. But not meaningless..

But you do not see a lesson of how NOT to be from this?

[mee]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

There are things worth knowing. There are things not worth expending effort towards. .

there are many valueless things which have no use at all .

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Alex P

I think meaningless is a blindness...

Exactly!! Looking for meaning in the meaningless is deliberate blindness.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by mee

there are many valueless things which have no use at all .

As expected lol....

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Exactly!! Looking for meaning in the meaningless is deliberate blindness.

How so?

With 123,

He said, something about some spoilt person who uses drugs or something in the media? And that to him is meaningless... Ok accepted. Because he isn't interested in media or the person or whatever...

But from this example you see meaning of how not to raise your child in such a spoilt way, or not to use drugs or whatever lol..... I have no idea of the story and it's detail, but there are lessons....

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Sure there are those that love that kinda stuff, I do not.. But not meaningless..

But you do not see a lesson of how NOT to be from this?

How often do I need to repeat the lesson if I have already figured the answers out?

Yes, I said that "knowing" closes the mind to other possibilities, and when dealing with complex questions this is true.

But some lessons are pretty obvious, even if we struggle with the answers in our daily lives. I already know, from experience and other sources, about addictive behavior. And I know what a struggle it can be to overcome my addictions. I don't need some silicone bimbo glamorizing addictive behavior in my face to remind me of my own daily struggles. That is not news, it is not important, and it is not worthwhile knowledge. It serves no valid purpose, other than to fatten her/his bank account to continue the cycle of glamorizing self-destructive behavior, and fatten the bank accounts of the vultures that feed off of this impending tragedy.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

How often do I need to repeat the lesson if I have already figured the answers out?

Yes, I said that "knowing" closes the mind to other possibilities, and when dealing with complex questions this is true.

But some lessons are pretty obvious, even if we struggle with the answers in our daily lives. I already know, from experience and other sources, about addictive behavior. And I know what a struggle it can be to overcome my addictions. I don't need some silicone bimbo glamorizing addictive behavior in my face to remind me of my own daily struggles. That is not news, it is not important, and it is not worthwhile knowledge. It serves no valid purpose, other than to fatten her/his bank account to continue the cycle of glamorizing self-destructive behavior.

What if you haven't figured out the answers? How do you know you have the answers? But I am not meaning to help reduce addictive behavior... But an example of what the outcome from drugs will be... But this is going to go no where right? lol. There are always lessons to be taught or learnt or given as an example or an expression, and you learn something new every day... And some girl has a bigger bank roll now... So I see meaning... Sorry but I do.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Alex P

So I see meaning... Sorry but I do.

Like I said, it is a value judgement.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Like I said, it is a value judgement.

Good for you here, have a cookie.