The final answer: I don't know.

[juantoo3]

I've got a cookie blocker. Got any brownies?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I've got a cookie blocker. Got any brownies?

*blags one from SG* Here ya go.

[Thomas]

Hi juantoo —

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Thanks for the Francis Bacon. I agree that "as long as" people remain deliberately ignorant it is to their detriment. Ignorance itself though is no crime nor sin.

Laziness is, however. Another one for you: "The unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

And the "seeker's mind" is far more productive practically, spiritually, pragmatically and diplomatically.

Not always ... when seeking becomes a virtue for its own sake, then most of its product is dross.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

There are things worth knowing. There are things not worth expending effort towards.

That's part of the examination ...

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Do I have a need for the knowledge to pilot a fighter plane ... That is practical wisdom in action.

Yes ... we call it common sense.

Thomas

[Dream]

Five pages in one night!

[17th Angel]

Depends how you look at it... This was started before I finished work yesterday... I am now halfway through my next work day :\ so kinda.

[Thomas]

Ji Juantoo —

Originally Posted by juantoo3

And the "seeker's mind" is far more productive practically, spiritually, pragmatically and diplomatically.

I was thinking about this over lunch ... my initial comment of 'dross' might seem a bit harsh.

When discussing 'faith' — which is the context in which the question was framed, knowledge or information is then determined as either 'informative' or 'performative'. Informative just adds to the bank of stuff we already know, and that's about all its does. Performative on the other hand is not merely a communication of things that can be known — it is of the order of a life-changing commitment.

Going back to tradition, to Bacon, and by the evidence of my eyes, many toady interpret 'gnosis' to be data of the informative kind, thus we have all manner of charlatans peddling the truth of 'gnostic Christianity' which amounts to little more than intriuing and enticing exotica ... food for the modern mind and its penchant for conspiracy theories.

The true Christian gnosis is of the performative order ... initiation into the Christian Mysteries does not result in me knowing something you don't know, it involved me engaging with the Divine in a way I could not do before, and indeed which man cannot do of his own account.

So in the last analysis, the statement 'I don't know' is a sure sign that 'Faith' a knowing which in itself has the power to be performative, is reduced by man to something purely informative, and about which, when someone asks, 'can it make a difference' the only answer can be ... "I don't know."

+++

The later proliferation of Christian denominations turn on two historical moments — the Reformation and the Enlightenment. In both cases the performative dimension was reduced according to a human rationality (questionable rationality in Luther's case), the more profound depths of the Mystery became occluded as man sought to rationalise what he couldn't understand.

The schism between denominations in pre-Reformation times was of a different order, they turned on the objective apprehension of the truth. The Reformation and the Enlightenment was the triumph of subject over object, an inversion of the proper order.

Thomas

[bananabrain]

personally, i don't know how anyone has the brass neck to tell me that stuff that i and three thousand years of my co-religionists find very meaningful, something without which civilisation would have been very, very different, is in fact meaningless. oh, hang on, yes, i do.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

something without which civilisation would have been very, very different,

True, but could it have been much worse?

[bananabrain]

yes.

of course, you only have my word for it, but you must admit that it is patently impossible for you to substantiate your belief without actually producing a parallel version of human history. to quote gandalf, "even the very wise cannot see all ends".

perhaps you are right in one way, though, tao. if religious people had actually done what they were told to do, rather than ignoring large parts of it to do with peace, social justice and morality, the world might be a much nicer place. if all jews kept shabbat, for example, we would contribute a great deal to saving the environment by not driving our cars for 1/7th of the week. personally, my car use dropped 42% the minute i stopped driving on saturdays. similarly, if we all tried to "love your neighbour as yourself", i find it hard to believe the world would be a worse place.

i'm not saying "more religion" is the answer. i'm saying "more of the right sort of religious behaviours" is the answer.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[wil]

hurr...hurr

he says as he raises his glasses to his forhead and stomps his staff in agreement...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by wil

hurr...hurr

he says as he raises his glasses to his forhead and stomps his staff in agreement...

Where's your hobbits?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

yes.

of course, you only have my word for it, but you must admit that it is patently impossible for you to substantiate your belief without actually producing a parallel version of human history. to quote gandalf, "even the very wise cannot see all ends".

perhaps you are right in one way, though, tao. if religious people had actually done what they were told to do, rather than ignoring large parts of it to do with peace, social justice and morality, the world might be a much nicer place. if all jews kept shabbat, for example, we would contribute a great deal to saving the environment by not driving our cars for 1/7th of the week. personally, my car use dropped 42% the minute i stopped driving on saturdays. similarly, if we all tried to "love your neighbour as yourself", i find it hard to believe the world would be a worse place.

i'm not saying "more religion" is the answer. i'm saying "more of the right sort of religious behaviours" is the answer.

b'shalom

bananabrain

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...157-post2.html

:P

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Dream

I like this idea of an I Don't Know section!

Think of the rib not as just a splinter of bone but as the forces between men and women which attract us to each other yet which also repel us. The Heb. word that has been translated rib is usually rendered into English as side or chamber -- not rib. (Concord) I think it is not referring just to a rib but to the symmetry and asymmetry in our body organs. Altogether, several types of symmetry and asymmetry are represented between men and women. Our bodies appear symmetric externally, but there are internal organs like the heart, liver, and bowels that are not symmetric. These organs approach a kind of symmetry when there are two bodies together. There are even body parts that men & women can share, called 'Reproductive organs;' however we can only get so close together, have so much symmetry. I think its not that a rib had to be taken to make the woman, but that a special dynamic was created in humankind between the sexes. The story of Genesis may relate to us what this is for....

...but I don't know for sure what it is! Care to speculate?

OK..... all life must give a portion of itself to continue.

See any living cell.

Women beget man?

True or false

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I don't know.

Isn't "I don't know" an honest answer?

Now please tell the Pope that faith does not finish the truth.

Is it better to lie when one doesn't know the answer? Are these the kinds of answers you hoped or expected to see? Is there not a great presumption in the OP regarding the abilities and motivations of others?

Point is religions do not share what is absolute in truth.

Ah! I see yet another fallacy brewing...

Why is the sky blue? Why does thunder peal after the lightning strike? Perhaps you know, perhaps you don't. For centuries I would guess many thoughts were put forward to explain, but at most only one is factually true. Do we have that truthful answer today? I don't know. I don't know because tomorrow somebody may come along with a better explanation, and I want to be open to hear it. I want my children to be open to hear it too.

What is the fallacy? You want your children to have the truth as well.

What is the nature of time?

Between all measurement.

What is gravity?

entangled energy

What is the relationship of matter to energy?

Mass is energy (light) affixed in time.

What is light made of?

Electric and magnetic field at perpendicular planes; see the cross!

Why do flags wave in the wind? All of these are simple physics questions...without answers.

Until now!

And then there are questions of the heart and of spirit; What is love?

See gravity but with a twist; mankind can predetermine or experience the affect before acting or imposition to existence.

For a simple question with a simple answer I agree children should be taught. But to narrow a child's horizon to rote and ritual, by demanding a simple answer whether true or not to a complex question, is to sabotage a child's innate curiousity and wonder. It stifles their imagination.

So if your kid wanted to see what is is like to pee from the kitchen counter top simply for 'curiousity' would you educate 'why he shouldn't'?

I don't know.

so your point is not so clear

People who do think they know everything, scare me.

Me too, as reality shares even the greatest computer on earth cannot 'know everything' but in fact when a pradigm shift occurs seems that all understanding of existing knowledge is affected; so all knowledge will be affected and often contradicts what people believe; such as entropy is only pure in reduced observation to the systems environment.

Meaning if life followed the 2nd law of thermodynamics; there would be no life!

Postulate: Life; abuses entropy!

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Do we not first have to learn to ask the correct question and then be willing and able to hear the answer when it comes?

The answer "I know" locks our minds away from possibilities.

wisdom class 301

teachings by simply following the answers of evolution; like a progress of 123