The Function Of Belief

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

With apologies to Juan, uh, ... I'm kinda burnt on dry definitions. This thread has stretched my brain out, and I'm tired.

I'm thinking about another kind of belief. The Disney kind. You know... if you believe with all your heart wishes do come true. My oldest daughter is seven. I got her a cool bike for her birthday in September. No training wheels this time. We had the photo op where she rode the bike soon thereafter. But she kinda crashed, and it was mostly dad holding her up. So the skinny is that she has been afraid of the new bike, and I had to let some time pass before I could coax her back on to it. But tonight she got the hang of it. I know from my own experience that there is a breakthrough point with new and scary things where the difference between letting fear hold you back and going for it is a shift in confidence. Believing in "I can do it" balances on that tiny fulcrum. That's where faith and belief meld. It's like water skiing: gotta lean back and trust.

Chris

It's kinda amazing how some of our beliefs (that something is not possible) can also paralyze us.

[Paladin]

You see, thats a whole other aspect of belief. Nothing monumental, no overarching principle by which the universe turns, just what is going on right now right here. Who cares if what we involve ourselves with every day has any real meaning or not? What does it really matter.

Chris thank you so much for sharing that. Your story illustrates the point so very well. For you and your daughter it's about that bike, and her feelings and what is going on with all that and how you are involved in relationship with these fleeting aspects of actuality.

Maybe that's all there really is, just relationships. And isn't it freeing to think it doesn't have to mean anything, or have an impact on eternity just enjoy it for what it is even if you don't fully understand it you can still live it.

I must say that I have enjoyed immensely all the posts in this thread. Kind of an intellectual "stone soup"

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Who cares if what we involve ourselves with every day has any real meaning or not? What does it really matter.

Well to the people who do it, I find they usually do care or apply some meaning.

Originally Posted by Paladin

For you and your daughter it's about that bike, and her feelings and what is going on with all that and how you are involved in relationship with these fleeting aspects of actuality.

Is it just me... or did you just apply a meaning? If you do not care, then why did you just apply a meaning to it? You say it is about the bike. I applied different meanings when I was in each role and heard or spoke the words, "You can do it."

Originally Posted by Paladin

And isn't it freeing to think it doesn't have to mean anything, or have an impact on eternity just enjoy it for what it is even if you don't fully understand it you can still live it.

In the commitments where I have placed faith, if I were to think or suggest within those relationships that it does not really have to mean anything... then the relationship would probably dissolve rather quickly. I've found that people avoid meaningless relationships, including myself. I strive to understand the meaning that the other person applies to something, because otherwise there is bad communication. In any simple understanding between people, or especially in an agreement, there is a required meaning that I am NOT free to ignore. Each individual has an intended meaning, and I would rebuke sharply, or leave, someone who tells me that their words, or my words, or the event, does not really have to mean anything. If it means nothing, then it is nothing. I see no freedom in that. Free from the relationship maybe. If my dad says, "Don't worry I have got you"... it had better mean something.

Paladin, it seems that I have settled in on what you might call a cognitive dissonance. I saw a pattern in words and responded to it. If my visceral truth (or not) annoys you, I give you the power of the remote: Just say the word and I will take it somewhere else. << Freeing >>

[Paladin]

Cyberpi, why would your visceral truth annoy me?
your perspective is valid in that it comes from your experience. But for the record I do tend to define a difference between overarching meaning and the meaning we find in relationship. Call it relative and absolute if you will but each is important. I have a meaningful relationship with many people but that is between myself and them. Outside that circle it may not exist but who cares?
And yes I may apply meaning to many things, but at the same time I realize it may be arbitrary. Without an attatchment or investment in absolute truths I am free to enjoy all that life has to offer, and enjoy it deeply.
So apply any meaning you wish, that is your perogative, and in that I wish you well.

And as far as any cognitive dissonance is concerned there really is none. while it may seem so as I discourse on non-meaning yet seem to apply meaning, that is the product of sequential vs random thinking. Since I find you to be rather adept at both as the situation dictates I think you will see my "meaning"

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Call it relative and absolute if you will but each is important. I have a meaningful relationship with many people but that is between myself and them. Outside that circle it may not exist but who cares?

As you discuss the function or meaning of a belief, or life, it is not clear to me whether you have been speaking about the life within a circle of relationships, and/or of the one outside of it.

Originally Posted by Paladin

Without an attatchment or investment in absolute truths I am free to enjoy all that life has to offer, and enjoy it deeply.

I submit that any existential angst is not over a truth or a belief, but in a person's absolute or relative, real or imaginary, boundary of relationships... and the boundaries of those with whom a relationship is had. I submit that those boundaries have a powerful effect on what life has to offer.

For example, maybe someone's existential angst that you refer to is really whether or not God is within their circle of relationships, or outside the circle as someone else's belief. Lots of angst in the world over that one, right?

[Paladin]

I imagine so. There are those who must harbor a foundational idea of what the world is, what God might or might not be in order to function. I have no qualms with that at all. There are those who cannot delve too deeply into the mystery lest they arive at the edge staring into the abyss. My daughter is like that, it took years of therapy in order for her to function without having a rather severe panic attack in which she would black out and sometimes become violent. The only thing that seems to have a lasting effect is the NLP treatment she received some years ago. Today she is a bright healthy student of psychology. But when she and I sit down to talk we talk about current events or music, movies or how she feels about her boyfriend. I don't discuss philosophy with her because she isn't wired to go there.

Here however we can explore and compare notes with the subtle movement our minds take in relationship to actuality.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Paladin

There are those who cannot delve too deeply into the mystery lest they arive at the edge staring into the abyss.

Drat! that fear of the unknown! I trust your daughter is doing well now.

Between this and what Chris added, it does add a bit of perspective. What is the nature of fear...our fears...what compells us to fear? What is it about boogeymen that makes us believe in them? At first glance I suppose we could write our fears off as experiences of pain or loss; but sometimes there are more encompassing fears, overwhelming fears, seemingly unfounded terrors that reside in some deep chasm in our imagination. Is there some direct association between belief and these deep seated fears?

Believe you can, or believe you cannot. Either way, you are correct.

Does fear play a role, and why? If fear is so detrimental, why is it that we fear?

What is the association between love, fear and rage? And what connection between these three and belief?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

It's kinda amazing how some of our beliefs (that something is not possible) can also paralyze us.

Paralyze = Polarize ???

I don't know why I have an image in my mind after reading this of a deer paralyzed by the headlights of an oncoming automobile. I imagine the deer frozen by its beliefs because it cannot fully fathom the reality careening down upon it. Quite a powerful symbol to me, I only hope it conveys. Moreso, I hope I appreciate the lesson.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Who cares if what we involve ourselves with every day has any real meaning or not? What does it really matter.

What does it really matter? To the individual believer? Probably everything.

Originally Posted by Paladin

Maybe that's all there really is, just relationships.

Maybe...dunno. Then again, maybe all life is just puzzle pieces inextricably tied to each other, past-present-future.

Originally Posted by Paladin

And isn't it freeing to think it doesn't have to mean anything, or have an impact on eternity just enjoy it for what it is even if you don't fully understand it you can still live it.

Sure it is freeing to let go of weighty thoughts. I don't have to understand how an airplane flies to know that I enjoy flying in an airplane.

On the other hand, if I want to build an airplane to fly in, perhaps I had better have a pretty good handle on how an airplane works...

Which I guess is my way of saying, "does one wish to lead, or follow?" Both can be acceptable. But I've got to have a whole lot of belief in the other pilot if I'm gonna trust somebody else enough to let them do the flying for me. But that's just me, my experiences have taught me to fear other pilots...

Originally Posted by Paladin

I must say that I have enjoyed immensely all the posts in this thread. Kind of an intellectual "stone soup"

Those are the best kind, I think.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Drat! that fear of the unknown! I trust your daughter is doing well now.

Between this and what Chris added, it does add a bit of perspective. What is the nature of fear...our fears...what compells us to fear? What is it about boogeymen that makes us believe in them? At first glance I suppose we could write our fears off as experiences of pain or loss; but sometimes there are more encompassing fears, overwhelming fears, seemingly unfounded terrors that reside in some deep chasm in our imagination. Is there some direct association between belief and these deep seated fears?

Believe you can, or believe you cannot. Either way, you are correct.

Does fear play a role, and why? If fear is so detrimental, why is it that we fear?

Fear helps to keep the number of those receiving Darwin Awards relatively small.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Fear helps to keep the number of those receiving Darwin Awards relatively small.

Ah!, but is a Darwin award all it is cracked up to be?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Believe you can, or believe you cannot. Either way, you are correct.

It seems to me that there is a process where one chooses to enter the unknown incrementally. You lean back a little, trust just a little, and see what happens. Swim out just a little further than the last time, then swim back and touch the edge. Each little step is a little leap, but it's never all or nothing. A little faith, a little belief, a little growth each time. I think what holds people back is the idea that there has to be a total naked leap, all at once, into the unknown.

Chris

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Fear helps to keep the number of those receiving Darwin Awards relatively small.

So then there is good science behind there being very few, for example, who were like Jesus Christ?!

Originally Posted by Paladin

The only thing that seems to have a lasting effect is the NLP treatment she received some years ago.

I wish your daughter and you the best.

I have been reading a little about NLP. Does the golden rule apply to it? Do unto others as you will that they do unto you? I personally desire open and honest communication with others, and with myself. If NLP is a pursuit of discovering the subjective or subverbal to make it more objective, as Maslow might suggest, then I consider it good. It is surely good for the education to identify the buttons or the triggers... to learn the science of the brain... to bring it to light.

When those subjective buttons or triggers are identified, and a person regains self control, I still see issues of faith. For example who wants to play the chemist to induce their own happy drug in a sort of perpetual masturbation? Why not then just go ingest the drugs when feeling low to brighten up the day. I submit the knowledge that might bring self control does not mean that controlling self is always good. With knowledge the power to choose is there, but to choose what? Conversely when there is a subjective button or anchor point identified on which a feeling hinges, then who is willing and open to disclose it to another person who might then press or deny it for their own purpose?

In an effort to communicate faith openly to children, I think there are some other good experiments that may seem pointless but that might be a rung on Maslow's pyramid. I view it as an opposite method to some of what I read about NLP. Children, for example, are delighted and their eyes open up when given control. If we jump in the car, then I might just take the time from my busy schedule and let them be the back seat driver for a day. We will go on an adventure. We will pack a lunch and they get to decide where we get to go explore. This seemingly pointless and chaotic activity, giving them the decision, is necessary. With it children are encouraged to explore. They still know that mom or dad approve, because we are there for them. They then see it. As time goes on, we watch more and more from a distance... they do someday prefer their own car. Another activity I remember as a kid was where someone blind folded themself, and let someone else guide them around an obstacle course. While it might be 'blind' faith... children don't see everything that parents do. So often the children are told to come here, to go there, to memorize this, or to think that, so it is really important to reverse those roles. For a time, not just control over the environment, but control over the parent. At its base level, is that not the golden rule?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

It seems to me that there is a process where one chooses to enter the unknown incrementally. You lean back a little, trust just a little, and see what happens. Swim out just a little further than the last time, then swim back and touch the edge. Each little step is a little leap, but it's never all or nothing. A little faith, a little belief, a little growth each time. I think what holds people back is the idea that there has to be a total naked leap, all at once, into the unknown.

I don't disagree Chris, I don't think my previous comment excludes this you point out.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Edison learned over a hundred ways how *not* to make a lightbulb before he figured out how to actually make one. What I take from that is that the way one deals with perceived failure (based on beliefs and "confidence") can influence their perceptions, and ultimately their personal relationship to and with the Divine. Am I a failure because I allow another to convince me I am (if I am told often enough, "you dummy!"), or am I a failure because I convince myself to give up and surrender through fear (telling myself "you dummy!"), or is failure simply another lesson about how not to achieve the goal I have set for myself (and learn how to contend with the obstacles that present themselves)?

Our beliefs are what can turn the condition of failure from a transient state into a more permanent state.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If NLP is a pursuit of discovering the subjective or subverbal to make it more objective, as Maslow might suggest, then I consider it good. It is surely good for the education to identify the buttons or the triggers... to learn the science of the brain... to bring it to light.

Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs was in chapter number one of every business text I had the pleasure of learning from. No exageration. I seriously do not recall any relationship to NLP. Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by cyberpi

When those subjective buttons or triggers are identified, and a person regains self control, I still see issues of faith. For example who wants to play the chemist to induce their own happy drug in a sort of perpetual masturbation? Why not then just go ingest the drugs when feeling low to brighten up the day.

I submit that by and large the bulk of the population do this chemically induced perpetual masturbation thing already. Whether by prescription or by contraband, there are more people driving on the highway *under the influence* of some chemical agent than one dares to consider. The cultural parameters defining what is *legal* and what is not are irrelevent. A person driving under the influence of legally prescribed narcotics is just as prone to deadly mistakes as any person under the influence of alcohol. Point being, if percentages (and mob rules democracy) are any indication of normalcy, then the normal mode of operation for "civilized" humanity seems to be a drug induced stupor. Those drugs used to induce stupor cloud the mind and separate the spirit from the Divine. Which is probably just as well; the typical mind refuses to look for the Divine, afraid of what they might find staring back at them.