The Function Of Belief

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I know in myself this is what I wanted to find and so I sought it. I could never have found it in any of the established institutions, I may be uneducated but I am not blindly stupid. So I sought it where my deepest most profound feelings reside, my love of life, life forms and this beautiful universe. I sauntered down the Lovelock way and found Gaia theory so obviously truth, based on my own hands on interaction with the natural world, that I began to elevate it beyond that which it is. I still believe the super-organism referred to as Gaia is a fact. And I still believe that we, as a constituent part of it, get our sense of something "bigger" from our immersion in it. But the 'intelligence' of Gaia shows no sign of being anything godlike in nature.

Tao

Hi Tao,

If Gaia means the law of cause and effect and everything interacts constantly with everything else then clearly yes this is the case. I don’t see how or why Gaia should be limited to the third rock from the sun…

But then on wiki I found this (on Gaia):

“a complex entity involving the Earth's biosphere, atmosphere, oceans, and soil; the totality constituting a feedback or cybernetic system which seeks an optimal physical and chemical environment for life on this planet.”

Gaia hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“seeks”…is this the best word? Might be misconstrued. Who or what is seeking? Only something with intelligence seeks. Is this your belief in the super-organism, for which you don’t want to use the g-word? Are you the one to define “godlike”? Could it be sufficient to mean something like “all of the universe with all of its complexities, laws and wonder” for example? It doesn’t have to be a bloke with a beard does it?

s.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Evangelism is the enemy of fact and reason.

Interesting view, Snoopy!

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Interesting view, Snoopy!

Evangelism is expressed as certitude. Certitude can make one blind to alternatives (which may include "the truth") and (on a macro level) certitude can be a very dangerous thing.

Certainty that there is no "God". Certainty that there is a "God"...
s.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Evangelism is expressed as certitude. Certitude can make one blind to alternatives (which may include "the truth") and (on a macro level) certitude can be a very dangerous thing.

Certainty that there is no "God". Certainty that there is a "God"...
s.

Certainly!, certainty is a blinder of men.

[_Z_]

snoopy

"seeks"…is this the best word? Might be misconstrued. Who or what is seeking? Only something with intelligence seeks

i think seeks is a good word in that an infinite intellegence would ‘automatically’ shape existence in the most advanced way. then once you have life it will encapsulate the universal nature of mind and continue the work. all in all universal evolution would be the product of an infinite equation - if you will.

so we may take gaia theory to its ultimate level where the world is thought of as the entire.

i agree about certainty. nothing is absolute.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I can't stand to watch Haggard. His face makes me want to yerg.

Is it the....erm...froth... around the lips that does it?

Oh, I don't dislike Dawkins. I couldn't finish his book because it put me in such a glaze. He should team up with Bill Maher and learn how to use profanity. I just can't stand to watch the guy debate another intellectual chimp. It's pornographic, like watching an ant obliviously follow a honey trail into hot lava. I hate to watch a mismatched fight, whether it's a debate, or a race, boxing match, or a football game.

Chris

My point exactly. All theologians are reduced to chimps by the science of his arguments.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi Tao,

If Gaia means the law of cause and effect and everything interacts constantly with everything else then clearly yes this is the case. I don’t see how or why Gaia should be limited to the third rock from the sun…

But then on wiki I found this (on Gaia):

“a complex entity involving the Earth's biosphere, atmosphere, oceans, and soil; the totality constituting a feedback or cybernetic system which seeks an optimal physical and chemical environment for life on this planet.”

Gaia hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“seeks”…is this the best word? Might be misconstrued. Who or what is seeking? Only something with intelligence seeks. Is this your belief in the super-organism, for which you don’t want to use the g-word? Are you the one to define “godlike”? Could it be sufficient to mean something like “all of the universe with all of its complexities, laws and wonder” for example? It doesn’t have to be a bloke with a beard does it?

s.

Yes the above is Gaia Theory, the concept that all life on Earth is a single organism and that all the individual species are symbiotic, saprophytic or parasitic organisms within it. I believe it does regulate the climate / atmospheric composition. But it thinks, or is 'aware' no more so than a tree.

You do not have to invoke any design, reason or purpose to be awed by what exists. We are awed because it is beautiful. Thats all.

Tao

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Paladin
This is what I'm getting at, we live in the conceptual rather than the actual. Notice the resistance you get when this is pointed out. Living in the actual is uncomfortable and unpredictable. Here the son of man has no place to rest his head.
I'm afraid I disagree with this Paladin. We live in the actual, we have to live in some reality that is concrete. Our *perceptions* of that reality are what create all the subjective truths we tend to "believe."


QED Juan.

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Juan

Originally Posted by juantoo3

"I sought it where my deepest most profound feelings reside, my love of life, life forms and this beautiful universe." -how is this any different than a person in a prehistoric tribal community looking to the stars and wondering "why?"

It is no different. I am happy to admit I am but a well dressed savage. Like I said, "I hoped" that I would find a logic or reason that made things tic. I never did, and I do not think for want of effort in my search. So I came down off the fence. Because in my lifetime of looking I have not a single tiny bit of proof that anything has planning. It evolves according to the intrinsic properties of matter, on a universal scale, and biological evolution on Earth.

I had a feeling I would get called on this. I would argue about bird plumage, that is simply a fortunate accident of evolution in combination with intraspecies breeding preferences.

No accident. It is aesthetic choice of the female that drives this, the prettier the display - the higher the chances of mating. I feel you may underestimate the intelligence of birds, or perhaps more likely, overestimate human aesthetics.

The point I was trying to make has to do with symapthetic magic. So many of the cave paintings and venus figures and many, many other *art*ifactual finds are overwhelmingly considered to be used to invoke the Divine.

To my knowledge by far the vast majority of cave paintings are of the prey animals these tribes hunted. Some may be representations of actual hunts that took place. Or perhaps they were part of a briefing before engaging on a hunt? No-one knows. Venus figures may well have been childs dolls. It is wrong to infer on them mystical or iconographic status when there is not a shred of evidence to support that idea. I agree that very probably they were icons, but we cannot prove that.

We are moral to those within our clan

Sorry but again I have to disagree. To get an idea of why I offer that you think about a pride of lions. What happens to the young males as they approach maturity? They are driven out. Same thing happens in human cultures. Humanity has always had alpha males and young upstarts. It has also always had ruthless alpha females greedy for resources/wealth. In times of plenty this is not such a great issue, but in scarcity it brings out the worst in people. That this is now changing is perhaps the biggest single change to our species way of life since we first walked out of Africa.


Tao

[_Z_]

Because in my lifetime of looking I have not a single tiny bit of proof that anything has planning

funny i cannot think of how it is possible that everything is not planned ~ if we include its own planning inherent within its nature, even this should be planned in some way?

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Z, I too am glad to see you back again

Originally Posted by _Z_

funny i cannot think of how it is possible that everything is not planned ~ if we include its own planning inherent within its nature, even this should be planned in some way?

No, the given nature of something does not infer a plan. In an infinite multiverse the local conditions we find here in our local universe are not here as a result of planning but because probability says they have to happen somewhere. It just happens to be here. No doubt some sentience somewhere is saying exactly the same thing as you and I about some quite different set of local conditions. And maybe even in some local universes God does exist!! But not in this one, as we collectively experience it, except as a human construct of the imagination.

Tao

[_Z_]

Hi Z, I too am glad to see you back again

hi tao, yeah i got wireless a short while ago and it has completely messed with my head and i couldnt get connected over most of christmass grr.

but because 'probability' [1] says they have to happen somewhere.

1. probability is quite a vague term and meaning. we could say that in a sense [due to the nature of infinity and the all] the ‘ghost’ of all things exist previous to their manifestations. then everything slots in where it can. for example; for you to exist, everything that came before you must have existed, this goes right back to singularity and infinite potential. then for everything there is its place as to were and when it is manifest naturally by its own ingredients.

moreso and something we seam to not even imagine, is the idea that this is not just relevant to the physical - the holistic ‘you’ would also be a ghost in infinity.

And maybe even in some local universes God does exist!! But not in this one, as we collectively experience it, except as a human construct of the imagination.

well it depends on what you mean by god, if we said it is the all and that has all we have ~ life being mind but decentralised, then god must exist, in a non existant kind of way lols. i cannot imagine another universe where some god sat on a cloud exists, personally i would fire nukes at one like that.

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

You do not have to invoke any design, reason or purpose to be awed by what exists. We are awed because it is beautiful. Thats all.

Tao

Oh Great Tao, "Thats all" or wot or EVERYTHING, thats it!!!
It's out of the box and beautiful..........
It never was in the box,'cept when all became manical divisions.
Without division..... gotta figure it out divisions...... it's all beautiful.

Some one, or nobody, knows, I wot,
Who or which or why or what....... Edward Lear "Nonsense Songs"

Untying the knot........ it flows.

Happy New Year everyone

- c -

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Moats n beems, eh huan?!

t.

No, beets and moans.

Chris

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by _Z_

the holistic ‘you’ would also be a ghost in infinity.

WOOOOOO I've been rumbled!! Its getting your head round the nature of time thats the biggy. Never did an illusion seem so real.

i cannot imagine another universe where some god sat on a cloud exists, personally i would fire nukes at one like that.

But so many do......and support leaders that use his name to justify a million crimes. I, we, have a few ideas that we realise may or may not hold some truth. Our true God is conjecture....is it not?

Tao