The Fundamentals Of Christianity - Page 2

Basstian · 02-19-2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Was Jesus born of a virgin? I don't think so anymore. Mark, the first gospel says nothing of it. Why would it be left out. It suddenly appears in Luke, Matthew 20 -30 years later. Paul , whose letters precede Mark don't mention virgin birth either. In fact Paul said Jesus was the greatest man ever born of woman

Matthew a tax collector starts his gospel with records geneology to prove the line of David thus proving those prophecys true and accurate. Not everything we read in Mattethew will describe every Detail of Jesus. But if we want Facts like you would record in a county office here is Matthew.

Mark seems to have followed Peter to Rome and more than that Gotten the whole story thru Peters eyes. He was not taken with Paul because as a young man he bailed out on Paul and Barnabas in pamphpylia. According to tradition he was young and when seeing the sickness in the city left and headed back home which deeply disturbed Paul. He is Peters version best we can tell.

Luke is from an I want to know everything about Jesus's life view. He was Pauls doctor and when sickness struck joined Paul and stayed on board trough out most of the action. His accout very well could have came from many of those who had walked with Jesus even Mary herself while was in Israel could have given him this information. Later in his life he desided to write a Friend the whole Story. We have Luke and Acts written by and to the same man. I like the fact Luke wasnt there for everything and I feel him being a doctor he would not be quick to write of things he hadnt proven for fact. Reading both works together Gives a very Nice perspective of the Birth of Christianity not just Christ.

John well I believe he shows heart feeling that the others where to manly to show. He shows the love of Christ IE(Jesus wept, For God so Loved) I think maybe John writes from the heart like this because he watched a dear Friend suffer so much. His details of the days and minutes leading to the cross can still make people tearry eyed today he writes the PASSION of CHRIST and in doing so gives us a perspective that the others would leave us cold on.

When you study these Gospels remember the writers where at onetime ordinary men like ourselves. They had jobs and lives outside their faith but yet were drew towards Christ and devoted their lives to Him by what they saw and heard. Read each one from the mindset of the author. Not to use Luke to disprove John or Matthew to disprove Mark but as a great view of Christ from 4 different personalities 4 different men who's lives were changed because of what they saw and heard from those who saw.

Remember Matthew being a tax collector may have never asked Mary if she was a virgin when Christ was born. But Luke being a Doctor may have said " I want to know everything about it" and Mary opened up and told him very private details. Not seeing every detail in every gospel is one of the most convincing things we have as to there accuracy and should build faith in the Word of God not cause us to doubt.

Bandit · 02-19-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Seems to me in this day and age.. we're all too smart for our own good.

That is kind of what I am seeing too. I did not really come up in a fundalmentalist type of church, but it was more of a WORD teaching church. Ask a question find the answer in the bible.
I personally see the fundamentals as the death burial and resurrection of Jesus and the rest falls on that foundation. If we dont have that, then all 66 books go right down the tubes.
The birth was only a means of arrival and did not bring us salvation.
We cannot raise ourselves up and break the curse of death on our own.
By faith we can see it and know it, By the washing of the Word is what keeps us and makes us strong.

Some are picking and choosing what sounds good to them, then trying to fill in the blanks with other ideas and it can get kind of twisted. It is the devils job to steal our nourishment. So I like to eat everything on my plate, even when sometimes it is hard to chew.
Some enjoy the path of digging up dirt (so to speak)

If anything I would claim to be a bible_ist and a Jesus_ist.

Basstian I enjoyed your post on the gospels. Very nice.

Welcome to the boards Quid Est Veritas

. Keep your faith.

Sacredstar · 02-19-2005, 07:51 PM

Dear Bandit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

We cannot raise ourselves up and break the curse of death on our own.

Jesus says different in his teachings provided in the Gospel of Thomas.

“ He who finds the inner meaning of these words will not taste death”

1. “The Kingdom is in your centre and is about you, when you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will be aware that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty and you who are the poverty.”3 “Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over all.”2

Seeking, finding, attaining self-mastery over all, are Gnostic prescriptions for salvation. Another term associated with salvation is preservation, so in our knowing of self we gain self mastery and in doing so we preserve our very being and physical reality.

Jesus goes on to say “If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.” “His disciples asked ‘Show us the Place where you are, because it is necessary for us to seek after it. He said unto them: He who has the ear let them hear: There is light at the centre of a man of Light, and he illumines the whole world. If he does not shine, there is darkness”. 24.

This suggests that this is not merely self-realisation, it is not a passive state of being like prayer or meditation, he is encouraging us to bring to the surface all negative emotions resulting from the roots of darkness within, that are harmful to the mind, body and soul.

Blessings in abundance

Sacredstar

Sacredstar · 02-19-2005, 07:58 PM

I think it is very important to remember that it was not in the best interests of Rome to have the people enlightened and empowered, hence why many of the important teachings of Jesus were excluded.

Blessings in abundance

Sacredstar

Bandit · 02-19-2005, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Dear Bandit

Jesus says different in his teachings provided in the Gospel of Thomas.

“ He who finds the inner meaning of these words will not taste death”

1. “The Kingdom is in your centre and is about you, when you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will be aware that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty and you who are the poverty.”3 “Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over all.”2

Seeking, finding, attaining self-mastery over all, are Gnostic prescriptions for salvation. Another term associated with salvation is preservation, so in our knowing of self we gain self mastery and in doing so we preserve our very being and physical reality.

Jesus goes on to say “If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.” “His disciples asked ‘Show us the Place where you are, because it is necessary for us to seek after it. He said unto them: He who has the ear let them hear: There is light at the centre of a man of Light, and he illumines the whole world. If he does not shine, there is darkness”. 24.

This suggests that this is not merely self-realisation, it is not a passive state of being like prayer or meditation, he is encouraging us to bring to the surface all negative emotions resulting from the roots of darkness within, that are harmful to the mind, body and soul.

Blessings in abundance

Sacredstar

Thats not completely right Star. It was his obedience to death that broke the curse of death.
If Jesus had not gone to calvary, no one would be saved.
We do not have the power by ourselves to raise us up.
It is the spirit of God that makes us alive to God, otherwise we are just a spirit in a body. There is more to it than just 'self'.

We all know what Rome did. It is done over and passed. I am also not going kick up all the old dirt. Been there and done it already.

didymus · 02-19-2005, 08:51 PM

I agree with sacredstar. Some of Jesus' teachings were kept from us but they have come forth in spite of man's attempts.

This is probably controversial to some but I don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin in the sense that Mary conceived without sin. If you look at the gospel Mark ( which is the earliest of the 4), it mentions nothing of a virgin birth. Also Paul, whose letters predate the gospel of Mark mention nothing of it either. In fact Paul said that Jesus was the greatest man ever born of woman. There isn't much room for interpretation there.

I do believe though that Jesus was and still is divine. To me Jesus doesn't have to be born of a virgin to be divine, nor did he have to be celibate or without children. We have no evidence one way or the other anyway.

Bandit · 02-19-2005, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

I agree with sacredstar. Some of Jesus' teachings were kept from us but they have come forth in spite of man's attempts.

This is probably controversial to some but I don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin in the sense that Mary conceived without sin. If you look at the gospel Mark ( which is the earliest of the 4), it mentions nothing of a virgin birth. Also Paul, whose letters predate the gospel of Mark mention nothing of it either. In fact Paul said that Jesus was the greatest man ever born of woman. There isn't much room for interpretation there.

I do believe though that Jesus was and still is divine. To me Jesus doesn't have to be born of a virgin to be divine, nor did he have to be celibate or without children. We have no evidence one way or the other anyway.

OK then. If we have all the records in the 66 books and the other books, which is more than enough, then why do you feel you need to surmise things didymus? and even mention things like that?
What difference does the order of the books make?
Things that have no record, possiblities, maybe(s), what if, could be etc., I personally have no interest in that.

A little hint, In my opinion, the more times something is mentioned in it, I consider those the things that are the most important. However all I need is two witnesses and it is established. Everyone can make there own choice to, Take it or leave it.

Sacredstar · 02-19-2005, 10:56 PM

So Bandit it appears you are disagreeing with the word of Jesus?

Being love

Sacredstar

Bandit · 02-20-2005, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

So Bandit it appears you are disagreeing with the word of Jesus?

Being love

Sacredstar

Well no Star, what was said exactly that makes you ask that?

I dont exalt what Jesus said over any other word that is written in the bible because I see it all as ONE word. I dont surmise things that are not written like maybe and maybe not .i.e. Jesus being married and having children.

I am one of the children, through adoption of the spirit.

remmusashi · 02-20-2005, 02:27 AM

First, I would like to apologize for going off track; but, I am hoping that those of you far more knowlegable than myself in the ways of Christianity can answer a fundamental question for me.

I do not, and have never, understood the principle of "Jesus dying for our sins." I am truly at a loss. As a young man growing up in a Christian household, I was expected to know what this meant. Yet whenever I ask or pursue the question, even the most devout have difficulty explaining it.

I have always believed that the Jesus' death sounds as though it was some repayment of a debt. Like a an old-world gangster taking the life of a family member because of some financial obligation. To whom was the debt paid?

A standard phrase to be heard: "God sacrificed his only son for our sins." If God has made the sacrifice (along with the obvious one that Jesus has made
), then to whom is this sacrifice being made? The term "sacrifice" would seem to imply homage to a higher being. This being the case, who is more powerful than God? Who would God be making a sacrifice to?

I have also been told that Jesus sacrificed himself to God. This doesn't make any sense either. What purpose does it serve to require the death of your son to do something that you already knew you where going to do? God could simply have forgiven the sins of humanity and instilled an inhearent knowlege of Jesus' willingness to sacrifice himself without the sacrific taking place.

The sacrifice was not neccessary unless it would have been required by a third party over whom God has no control.

Help me, please. I am very confused.

lunamoth · 02-20-2005, 02:49 AM

in reply to remmu, from http://www.stjohnadulted.org/The_05....e%20We%20Saved

Quote:

3. How Are We Saved?

3.1. Introduction

How does Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection save us? What are the mechanisms by which the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, and/or the Resurrection makes our salvation possible?

Some views (not mutually exclusive):

Jesus’ Life and Death Constitutive: 1. Cross as a Sacrifice

2. Cross as Victory

3. Cross and Forgiveness

4. Incarnation and Deification

Jesus’ Life and Death Illustrative:
5. Cross as Moral Example

3.2. The Cross as Sacrifice

The view that Jesus' sacrificial offering of himself on the cross made our salvation possible pervades liturgy. This view proposes:

In dying on the cross, Christ was both victim and priest, offering himself to the Father as the Passover sacrifice

Purpose of Christ’s sacrifice was to appease the Father for the sins of humanity, thus making our salvation possible.

Jesus’ single sacrifice sufficed, was “perfect” because Jesus was divine as well as human, making the “magnitude” of his sacrifice far greater than that of any ordinary human being

Problems / Questions with this view of how we are saved through Jesus' life and death

What does a sacrifice do for God? Why would God want a “sacrifice” before God could be merciful to sinners? How could God’s mercy be dependent on a sacrifice?

Horace Bushnell (1866) suggested:

Christ’s sacrifice awakens our sense of guilt and shows us God suffers because of our sins (illustrative dimension)

Jesus’ death both affected / moved / changed God as well as expressed God (constitutive dimension)

3.3. The Cross as Victory (Christus Victor)

Christ the Victor = Christus Victor

Through his Crucifixion and Resurrection, Jesus achieved a lasting victory over sin, death and Satan. The view that Christ won a victory through his Crucifixion and Resurrection also pervades our liturgy.

But how? How did Jesus' death on a cross achieve a victory?

3.3.1. The "Classic" Theory of How the Victory Was Won

The Classic Theory of How the Victory was Won (Origen, Gregory the Great):

The devil had gotten rights over fallen humanity. God had to respect those rights The devil’s right could only be forfeited if the devil exceeded his authority

God devised a plan to trick the devil in order to get him to unknowingly exceed his authority: Jesus was sent into the world, divine and sinless (the “hook”), but in the form of a sinful human being (“the bait”)

The devil took the “bait” and tried to claim authority over Jesus, discovering too late the “hook” – that Jesus was also divine and sinless. Thus the devil exceeded his authority and had to forfeit his claim on fallen humanity.

3.3.2. Problems with the Classic Christus Victor Theory

St. Anselm was troubled by this classic explanation of the Christus Victor theory because:

How could the devil ever get “rights” over fallen humanity, and why would God be under any obligation to respect them?

God is righteous and would never deceive, not even the devil

3.4. The Cross and Forgiveness of Sins

3.4.1. The "Satisfaction" Theory

Anselm, with later refinement by Thomas Aquinas, proposed:

God acts according to the principles of justice in humanity’s redemption

God’s sense of justice demands some satisfaction or penance be done for the disobedience of humanity before humanity’s sin are forgiven

Jesus’ death allows the forgiveness of sins because: 1. Jesus substitutes for us on the cross. God allows Jesus to stand in our place and take our guilt upon himself.

2. Jesus is the covenant representative for humanity. By his obedience on the cross, he wins the benefit of forgiveness for those he represents.

3. Through faith, believers participate in the risen Christ (Paul: “in Christ”), and thereby share the benefits won by Jesus.

3.4.2. Problems with the "Satisfaction" Theory

Problems with this "satisfaction theory:"

in what sense is it moral or “just” for one human being to bear the penalties due to another?

why does God need “satisfaction” or penance for sins? There surely cannot be some “law of justice” that is higher than God that demands each sin be counterbalanced by a proportionate penance (especially a penance provided by a innocent substitute!)

3.5. Incarnation and Deification

“God become human, in order that humans might become God.”

- Athanasius

Salvation in Orthodox Church: the broken relationship between individuals and God is restored so that human beings can participate in the uncreated energy of God (“deification”)

“Deification” is possible because:

in the Incarnation: Jesus did not only become an individual human being, but:

the Godhead, divinity itself took on general human nature

this new divinized human nature heals the gap between human beings and their Creator Jesus (the “new Adam”) is the first example of divinized humanity, of our ultimate vocation

“It was necessary that the voluntary humiliation, the redemptive selfemptying (kenosis) of the Son of God should take place, so that fallen men might accomplish their vocation of theosis, the deification of created beings by uncreated grace.”

- Vladimir Lossky, 1953

3.6. The Cross as Moral Example

3.6.1. Peter Abelard: The Cross Illustrates God's Love

The incarnation, the life and death of Jesus illustrates God’s love for humanity and moves us to love of God. This love is what saves us.

Peter Abelard:

“the purpose and cause of the incarnation was that Christ might illuminate the world by his wisdom, and excite it to love of himself”

“our redemption through the suffering of Christ is that deeper love within us which not only frees us from slavery to sin, but also secures for us the true liberty of the children of God, in order that we might do all things out of love rather than out of fear. . .”

3.6.2. Christ is the Moral Ideal

After the Enlightenment, this view “expanded” to:

Christ the moral ideal taught by his words

illustrated by his life and death

the most important aspect of this moral ideal was his love for others

Taking to heart and trying to live Christ’s moral ideal is all we need to be saved

For myself, I am content to leave it a mystery and know that it just IS.

Peace,

Bandit · 02-20-2005, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remmusashi

First, I would like to apologize for going off track; but, I am hoping that those of you far more knowlegable than myself in the ways of Christianity can answer a fundamental question for me.

I do not, and have never, understood the principle of "Jesus dying for our sins." I am truly at a loss. As a young man growing up in a Christian household, I was expected to know what this meant. Yet whenever I ask or pursue the question, even the most devout have difficulty explaining it.

I have always believed that the Jesus' death sounds as though it was some repayment of a debt. Like a an old-world gangster taking the life of a family member because of some financial obligation. To whom was the debt paid?

A standard phrase to be heard: "God sacrificed his only son for our sins." If God has made the sacrifice (along with the obvious one that Jesus has made
), then to whom is this sacrifice being made? The term "sacrifice" would seem to imply homage to a higher being. This being the case, who is more powerful than God? Who would God be making a sacrifice to?

I have also been told that Jesus sacrificed himself to God. This doesn't make any sense either. What purpose does it serve to require the death of your son to do something that you already knew you where going to do? God could simply have forgiven the sins of humanity and instilled an inhearent knowlege of Jesus' willingness to sacrifice himself without the sacrific taking place.

The sacrifice was not neccessary unless it would have been required by a third party over whom God has no control.

Help me, please. I am very confused.

Hi remmusashi

Good question.
I dont see it just for sin as in disobedience, but also to break the curse of death. The death of Jesus was a commandment to him. The third party you mention I see as Adam who was the first, even before Eve, who got the ball rolling. I also would not say that it is not that God had no control, rather He also made us with the ability to choose things. In our fall, he also supplies a way of escape and that is through Jesus.
The Old Testament was a type of sacrifice through animals for sin, but Jesus is the only one who could actually bring the redemption and bring man back into loving favor with God.
Unless you are willing to search the scriptures on your own for days and days and days, and weeks and months and YEARS, it is much easier to simply accept that it works.

Lunamoth left some good variations for you to check out.

Gods ways are different than our ways. Hope we helped ya a little bit and welcome aboard.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Faithfulservant · 02-20-2005, 10:22 AM

Ok before Jesus there was the Law given to Israel by God through Moses. One of the things that they had to do was sacrifice animals on an altar to cover their sins. Then God sent His only begotten Son to the world because even with the sacrifices men could never be truly clean of sin. Jesus was in a sense the choicest of the herd being the beloved Son of God..He is called the Lamb of God. He was sinless from conception till his death on the cross. Jesus on calvary was the FINAL sacrifice.. it was the sacrifice of ALL sacrifices. No longer did man have to pick the choicest of his herd to atone for his sins.. He now could repent and his sins would be forgiven.. Thats if Man accepts Jesus as his savior.

Faithfulservant · 02-20-2005, 10:35 AM

Ok SS.. Ive said this before so I might as well say it again.. Most people do not recognize the books that are not in the bible as being Spirit inspired. Everytime you quote something from them... or quote something that I cannot find in my bible I just disregard it. You asked Bandit if he was disagreeing with the word of Jesus.. the WORD of Jesus is the HOLY bible. Jesus IS the WORD. The Holy Spirit is the WITNESS of Jesus and HE inspired the HOLY bible..the HOLY Spirit interprets the bible for US. the Believers of Christ Jesus. the Savior of MAN the Son of God. The Author of our Foundation.. the ALPHA and the OMEGA. The Beginning and the End. The RIGHTEOUS RIGHT HAND OF GOD and the Great I AM.

Ive seen how you butcher scriptures and Im borderlining on intolerance of your assurance that these other books are the pure word of God and the HOLY bible is roman propaganda which you seem to quote when it suits your purpose.

I do not suggest that you have to believe how I believe or how Bandit believes but I do ask you to get off your high horse and accept that not everyone believes the way you do.. especially on the Christian Forum and especially under this topic that I posted because I was tired of you flaming mine and others beliefs with your weeping over how we are hypocrites and voted a butcher into office.

I and others have tried to be delicate with you in this but delicacy does not seem to be working.

Rant over.. and my apologies to all.

Sacredstar · 02-20-2005, 03:39 PM

Dear remmusashi

SPOT ON! Follow your heart the Christ within and that which GOD is sharing with you directly.

If Jesus died for our sins there would be no darkness on planet earth.

It also did not break the curse of death either, if anything the murder of Jesus increased the crimes of humanity for which we have paid dearly in millions of lives lost. For what it is worth I was told that this was the last part of the fall of humanity down the dimensions.

The liberal 21st century priests are also having a great deal of trouble defending this dogma that Jesus died for our sins.

I was once told that when the crucifix is removed from earth so will all the pain and suffering will be removed from earth. Nostradamus also predicted that the church would be destroyed one brick at a time.

All power structures that attempt to dominate or control GOD's people, GOD allows them to destroy themselves with their own hand and so it is.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar