The Fundamentals Of Christianity - Page 3

juantoo3 · 02-20-2005, 02:57 PM

Kindest Regards, all!

Quote:

Taking to heart and trying to live Christ’s moral ideal is all we need to be saved

Indeed! If I may be allowed to chime in frankly, what I see with the "fundamentals" as they are presented here, is that they are justifications to hold the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles above other teachings. However, and this is the crucial point, what good is it to believe only and not do? I believe it was James who said something like "be ye doers of the word, and not just hearers only." If a person claims to be Christian, and does not the things Christ taught, then is that person truly "saved?" Likewise, if a person does the things Christ taught, even though that person has no idea who Jesus is, is that person not "saved?" It seems to me the teachings are more important in God's eyes, than any of the teachers. If a person withholds charity from one in need, or sends the naked forth without clothing him with the admonishment "pray, and God will take care of you," that person is not doing what Jesus or the Apostles taught.

My two cents, FWIW.

Bandit · 02-20-2005, 05:59 PM

Juantoo3 you post is appreciated and very in line with the scriptures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Dear remmusashi

SPOT ON! Follow your heart the Christ within and that which GOD is sharing with you directly.

If Jesus died for our sins there would be no darkness on planet earth.

It also did not break the curse of death either, if anything the murder of Jesus increased the crimes of humanity for which we have paid dearly in millions of lives lost. For what it is worth I was told that this was the last part of the fall of humanity down the dimensions.

The liberal 21st century priests are also having a great deal of trouble defending this dogma that Jesus died for our sins.

I was once told that when the crucifix is removed from earth so will all the pain and suffering will be removed from earth. Nostradamus also predicted that the church would be destroyed one brick at a time.

All power structures that attempt to dominate or control GOD's people, GOD allows them to destroy themselves with their own hand and so it is.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Dear SacredStar,
You have this mixed up. If you leave the cross and The death out of it, you have nothing. Jesus was not only murdered he was also a scarifice for sin.
The death of the cross has nothing to do with the pain and suffering of the world.
People bring that on themselves.
The cross did indeed break the curse of death and bring forgiveness IF, IF IF people accept it, you just do not understand it right and have not taken all the scripture.
Jesus dying for our sin is very much so scripture it is NOT dogma.
You have repentance mixed up too Star.
I am sorry but this an area that I will defend and I will always defend.

It is interesting. The fundalmentalists have a way of choking the Word of God, and the liberalsits have a way of throwing 90% of the Word of God in the garbage.

didymus · 02-20-2005, 10:45 PM

There is absolutely no doctrine or dogma in what Jesus spoke of. Everything we have today is an interpretation of scripture and an interpretation of what Jesus said.

I need to rebuttle the comment that anything in the Bible is the Word of God and that not found there is not. What Sacredstar was quoting was from some of the first christians. There were many writings out there. Many. The church leaders made a concious decision on what to include and exclude. Some were not even allowed in the running. If you are at all familiar with the folks that decided what was to become orthodox it was a dubious bunch.

What we have today only remotely resembles early christianity. For example the image of the cross didn't become "christian" util the 4th century. Are you at all familiar with the council of nicea? One can not read about that objectively without asking themselves how devout that meeting was. The same year as the council was held, Constantine, the leader of Rome(the one who called the meeting) had his son and I believe hisd brother killed.

Other christaian sects were squelched because they didn't concern themselves with church bishops and hierarchy. They beleived in knowing God for yourself and experiencing Him. You didn't need approval from a bishop or priest to read scripture or have a prayer mmeeting. This offended the bishops and priests and the group was marganilized. I could go on and on about this I suggest you read it for yourself. You will be troubled that is for sure, if you can be honest with yourself.

Bandit · 02-21-2005, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

There is absolutely no doctrine or dogma in what Jesus spoke of. Everything we have today is an interpretation of scripture and an interpretation of what Jesus said.

I need to rebuttle the comment that anything in the Bible is the Word of God and that not found there is not. What Sacredstar was quoting was from some of the first christians. There were many writings out there. Many. The church leaders made a concious decision on what to include and exclude. Some were not even allowed in the running. If you are at all familiar with the folks that decided what was to become orthodox it was a dubious bunch.

What we have today only remotely resembles early christianity. For example the image of the cross didn't become "christian" util the 4th century. Are you at all familiar with the council of nicea? One can not read about that objectively without asking themselves how devout that meeting was. The same year as the council was held, Constantine, the leader of Rome(the one who called the meeting) had his son and I believe hisd brother killed.

Other christaian sects were squelched because they didn't concern themselves with church bishops and hierarchy. They beleived in knowing God for yourself and experiencing Him. You didn't need approval from a bishop or priest to read scripture or have a prayer mmeeting. This offended the bishops and priests and the group was marganilized. I could go on and on about this I suggest you read it for yourself. You will be troubled that is for sure, if you can be honest with yourself.

The first Christians were the Apostles and you will never change that. I dont care who said or did what after the acts of the Apostles. If you dont like these fundamentals that were set forth by the Apostles then go make your own fundamentals and discuss them with other people who like to make up there own.

If you believe the bible is a 'good holy book' like you say, then concentrate on that instead of the hierarchy through History that came after the Acts of the Apostles.
The Book of Acts is written very CLEAR and very pure with no lies and no alterations. Stick that feather in your cap.

For the fifth time, I am very aware of the lies. But I dont focus on the lies like you do. You act as if you are the only one who has read any History.

Get a grip.

juantoo3 · 02-21-2005, 12:44 AM

OK, what I am beginning to see develop is another "knock down, drag out, who says--I says, oh yeah, take that!" Funny, how Christianity can't even get along amongst its own. And this, from a faith that preaches love!

If you believe in the fundamentals as I have seen here, fine. I happen to think most of it is myth taken on faith confused with fact, not that my opinion amounts to anything.

So, where is "judge not, that ye be not judged?" Again, and I stress for importance, the doing of the teaching is by far more important than what any sect or denomination teaches as doctrine or dogma!

If we, meaning Christianity as a whole, cannot ever get that straight, how can we ever hope to get along with anybody else in the world?

I'll climb down from my soapbox now. But I'm watching...

If you really want peace on earth and goodwill towards all men (humanity), then you must begin with yourself, each and every one. That's the way it is, and like the good Rabbi once said, "anything more is (just) commentary."

Bandit · 02-21-2005, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

OK, what I am beginning to see develop is another "knock down, drag out, who says--I says, oh yeah, take that!" Funny, how Christianity can't even get along amongst its own. And this, from a faith that preaches love!

If you believe in the fundamentals as I have seen here, fine. I happen to think most of it is myth taken on faith confused with fact, not that my opinion amounts to anything.

So, where is "judge not, that ye be not judged?" Again, and I stress for importance, the doing of the teaching is by far more important than what any sect or denomination teaches as doctrine or dogma!

If we, meaning Christianity as a whole, cannot ever get that straight, how can we ever hope to get along with anybody else in the world?

I'll climb down from my soapbox now. But I'm watching...

That is what I dont get. If the thread was started for those who DO believe these things, then why are people who dont believe them coming into it and starting division with those who do believe it.
I have no interest in challenging others on there beliefs to this extreme. So I would kindly expect the same.

juantoo3 · 02-21-2005, 01:11 AM

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

May I gently remind that this is a forum dedicated to interfaith discussions? There is no genuinely dedicated thread to anybody here, and if any are treating threads in that manner, it is in my view inappropriate. But with this I must also gently remind, that when dealing with those of other faiths and beliefs, it is of great importance to be respectful, even (and perhaps most especially) if you disagree with their teachings. Which brings me back to the post above, if Christians cannot get along with each other, how can they possibly say they are seeking peace on earth and goodwill towards mankind? Doesn't it seem strange to you, that a teacher who sought out the lowliest people to bring them hope, regardless of their affiliations, would teach his followers to separate themselves from all others? The way that modern churches do, like some kind of exclusive country clubs or something? Do you really, in your heart of hearts, think Jesus wold approve of such discrimination?

Sacredstar · 02-21-2005, 01:55 AM

Dear Bandit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

1) You have this mixed up.

2) If you leave the cross

3) and The death out of it, you have nothing.

4) Jesus was not only murdered he was also a scarifice for sin.

5) The death of the cross has nothing to do with the pain and suffering of the world.

6) The cross did indeed break the curse of death and bring forgiveness

7) IF, IF IF people accept it, you just do not understand it right and have not taken all the scripture. Jesus dying for our sin is very much so scripture it is NOT dogma.

8) You have repentance mixed up too Star. I am sorry but this an area that I will defend and I will always defend.

9) It is interesting. The fundalmentalists have a way of choking the Word of God, and the liberalsits have a way of throwing 90% of the Word of God in the garbage.

1) This is your perception

2) There is a big difference between the cross and the crucifix, the cross is fine, the crucifix is a negative affirmation of pain and suffering. There as been enough research on the power of negative TV viewing on the general public for one to appreciate the principles. Jesus would like to be remembered in dignity, fully clothed, smiling in joy surrounded by the children they he loved. That is his wish that I simply pass on to those that have the ears to hear.

3) Well I do not accept that your whole faith is based upon his death I feel your heart larger then that.

4) Let us shake hands, have a hug and agree to disagree. The GOD I know would not sacrifice anyone for 'Thou shalt nor kill"

5) Let us agree to disagree, I can only pass on what as been relayed to me by the man himself.

6) I cannot see this can you provide us with some evidence?

7) We all come to our own realisations, in our own time and space. In fact the director of the movie www.thebeastmovie.com is a reformed ex Christian Fundamenalist.

8) Fine

9) Disagree liberalists are open to others views, gnostics listen to GOD in preference to a book of words written, disorted, mistranslated, misconstrued and manipulated to control and dominate the masses into submission to the church. My personal experience of GOD is empowering, the complete opposite of the original churches agenda that produced the bible. It is clear from Jerome's letters the only intent for the bible was to show the birth, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. His teachings were not ever part their intent or agenda. I recommend that you read these letters about the compilation of the bible they are enlightening. To be honest I am pleased to say that there are some words of wisdom in the bible and thank GOD there are, otherwise it would be all doom and gloom and we know what that can do for us biologically.

Have fun Bandit GOD loves us all and smiles at us when we are happy!

Kim xx

Bandit · 02-21-2005, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

May I gently remind that this is a forum dedicated to interfaith discussions? There is no genuinely dedicated thread to anybody here, and if any are treating threads in that manner, it is in my view inappropriate. But with this I must also gently remind, that when dealing with those of other faiths and beliefs, it is of great importance to be respectful, even (and perhaps most especially) if you disagree with their teachings. Which brings me back to the post above, if Christians cannot get along with each other, how can they possibly say they are seeking peace on earth and goodwill towards mankind? Doesn't it seem strange to you, that a teacher who sought out the lowliest people to bring them hope, regardless of their affiliations, would teach his followers to separate themselves from all others? The way that modern churches do, like some kind of exclusive country clubs or something? Do you really, in your heart of hearts, think Jesus wold approve of such discrimination?

No problem Juanatoo3 You are the boss

In answer to your questions here the answer is No. It seems to me, it is the individuals (not congregations) who truly follow Jesus and the Bible to the best of there ability who are discriminated.

It is not that I cannot get along but I feel extremely attacked on the fundamentals that I believe in this thread. With all due respect Juan, I don't go into the other forums and threads and tell them what they believe is dogma and keep coming back with more issues that are contrary to what they believe.
This thread was started asking who believes these things and so I joined it. This time I found the latter of it to be quite offensive and disrespectful in the life, death, burial and resurrection of my Lord.
When I see that someone may be offended by something different than what I believe I stop or dont even begin.
The discord was sewn by something that the thread is not about. If your perception of that is different, I wont argue.

Thank You FaithfulServant for starting it and to the ones who jumped on the bandwagon without hesitation, for I know your intentions were good.
Seeing that what it started out as, has turned into something totally different, I have nothing else to add to this.

Peace and have good evening everyone.

didymus · 02-21-2005, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

The first Christians were the Apostles and you will never change that. I dont care who said or did what after the acts of the Apostles. If you dont like these fundamentals that were set forth by the Apostles then go make your own fundamentals and discuss them with other people who like to make up there own.

If you believe the bible is a 'good holy book' like you say, then concentrate on that instead of the hierarchy through History that came after the Acts of the Apostles.
The Book of Acts is written very CLEAR and very pure with no lies and no alterations. Stick that feather in your cap.

For the fifth time, I am very aware of the lies. But I dont focus on the lies like you do. You act as if you are the only one who has read any History.

Get a grip.

It is important to me when studying and believing aspects of christianity to know the whole story. That's just me though. I know this is a sore subject. When I first found these things out I felt betrayed. Then that betrayal led to anger then a surrender. When I was able to lay aside my preconceptions of who and what God was it freed me to really seek Him, which I am still doing. I'm not saying I couldn't seek Him before but it was a seeking that was approved by the church. Those nagging suspicions I had never went away. You know, those things you know can't be true but you remain quiet and " have faith in them."

I try not to focus on the lies and think that I am succeeding at that. I make a greater attempt to focus on the truth which is the opposite of the lies. You can't admit there are lies and deny the truth. I challenge you to look at the other side of the lies,which is the truth. One needs to be brutally honest with his/herself in this matter.

What amazed me was after all of the questioning and frustration my faith wasn't destroyed as I thought it might be. It grew, and grew in new ways. I'm able to think and pray and contemplate God outside of the box. Maybe it isn't a box to you, to me it was. And I still believe in Jesus and the Christ that filled him. I can't put my belief in Christ in a box for you. It's not something I can describe or explain. As you probably understand. He still amazes me and awes me with his mystery. Peace.

Faithfulservant · 02-21-2005, 11:34 AM

With all due respect to our boards moderator I believe I need to post the reason for this thread.. Since being a member of CR I have felt that my beliefs have been attacked in a manner that I am beginning to find disrespectful and since noone was doing anything about it I took it upon myself to start a thread listing the fundamentalist beliefs.. I am non-denominational I however believe every single one of the things that are listed at the start of the thread. If I seemed to have "attacked" anyone it is because I have felt an intolerance on a board that is based on religious tolerance. No.. we do not all believe the same things and I have not shoved my beliefs down anyones throat I have tried to discuss my beliefs with others in a respectful manner and not put my opinions in a negative way until I felt that I was not receiving the same respect. If that is a problem then I apologize but I believe a point needed to be made... and amazingly enough I dont believe the point was even gotten!!

Respectfully

juantoo3 · 02-22-2005, 01:49 PM

Kindest Regards Faithfulservant, Bandit, didymus, Sacredstar and anybody else I may have overlooked!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Since being a member of CR I have felt that my beliefs have been attacked in a manner that I am beginning to find disrespectful and since noone was doing anything about it I took it upon myself to start a thread listing the fundamentalist beliefs..

Duly noted.

Quote:

If I seemed to have "attacked" anyone it is because I have felt an intolerance on a board that is based on religious tolerance. No.. we do not all believe the same things and I have not shoved my beliefs down anyones throat I have tried to discuss my beliefs with others in a respectful manner and not put my opinions in a negative way until I felt that I was not receiving the same respect.

Very good. This is the way it should be, but not all people have learned to be respectfully tolerant, including others who will come to you with questions about your beliefs. Quite frankly, I saw nothing particularly "attacking" about the posts from didymus or Star, they were simply rebutting your position. You stood a banner, called a rally for your troops, and then cried foul when someone attacked. Think about that, you actually laid out a dare, whether or not you realize it.

Now, I want to be VERY clear. The *ONLY* reason I interjected when I did was to calm down the heating rhetoric. I chimed in only when it seemed Bandit was about to lose his cool. My warning was to all concerned, not just Bandit. I did not chime in because I disagree with anybody, I do not work that way. I would hope you have known me long enough to realize that, and I am somewhat surprized and dismayed any of you would even suggest such a thing. If you will look, that post of mine was not addressed to anyone specific, there is not even a salutation. In short, it was to everybody, and it was meant to nip things in the bud! I will not accept flame wars, if you wish to begin playing those games, I highly recommend going somewhere that intolerance is the rule. If you have been around here long enough, or read through the old threads, including the one on "Fundamentalist Christianity", you would see that I do not suffer intolerance well, against anybody, from anybody.

However, what I have seen here is an attempt at intelligent, if not altogether polite, discussion of the fundamentals that certain Christians hold to. Quite frankly, I saw no intended belligerence, and it was only when the conversation began to degrade to that point that I chimed in. If my goal was to end this conversation, I would have done so much sooner. But, believe it or not, I respect where you are coming from. I was there once too. After much learning, and prayer, and appeals to God for understanding and wisdom, over many years, have I come to where I am now. And I still question me.

This is Brian's house. We are guests. The only thing Brian has asked is that we respect each other. Look at the Code of Conduct if you need to refresh your memory. I do not think that is much to ask of a guest.

Long ago I heard it said that a man only resorts to cursing and violence to make his point when he has nothing more intelligent to say. Of course, intellect will not get a person to heaven, a caring heart that puts love into action does. But intellect can also mislead a caring heart. And the only way to respectfully deal with intellect is with other or more intellect.

As for threads getting off topic, sometimes that happens. There are no real issues in the world at large that do not affect, or are affected by, other issues. That is the nature of reality. I wish I could remember where, but one of my favorites here was when a number of us argued over what kind of cheese the moon was made of, and mutual calling of each other "heretics" because of our disagreements!

It was all in good fun and well worth the laugh, but definitely not on topic.

Because this is a place for interfaith dialogue, one cannot expect to post something and not have it questioned. Keep in mind, anything posted should always be considered an invitation to everybody. There is no privacy, favoritism or discrimination here, or at least there should not be. I would ask, if we cannot get along as Christians amongst each other, how will we respond when we are questioned over the exact same issues by a Jew or Muslim? Or a Hindu or Jain or Buddhist? Or Pagan? Or Agnostic or Atheist? Is our natural response to dismiss, denounce, ignore and belittle? How can intolerance be interpreted as shining our light? Isn't intolerance more like hiding our light under a basket?

Look, I think very highly of the lot of you. You have all been really good sports. I think that once we calm down and come back with fresher heads and a new perspective, we can actually learn from this experience. At least, that is my hope and prayer.

P.S., for Bandit: Dogma is not a dirty word...

juantoo3 · 02-22-2005, 02:47 PM

Bump for exposure, it was not showing up.

Sacredstar · 02-22-2005, 06:31 PM

hmm.....GOD at work here I feel asking those that feel a negative emotion to recognise the core issue and seek out the root cause.....within.

Glory be to GOD in the evidence of our experience.

For when we are whole it matters not what anyone else says we do not take it personally, when we are healed outside influences do not trigger anything negative from within.

Pure light emanates pure light so maybe it is time to address the grey areas.

"The more the dark shadows draw close to you the larger your Christ light becomes".

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Ciel · 02-22-2005, 06:47 PM

Dear Sacred Star,
Im still smiling.................Yes