The Godhead

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Dondi –

Well I for one think that's a very workable idea.

The Catholic West generally has tended to focus on Christology in Theology, some might say at the expense of the Holy Spirit – this was the driving force behind Vatican II – to focus on the Spirit in the life of the Church:

"Amen, amen, I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do: and greater than these shall he do."
John 14:12

Only 'by the Power of the Holy Spirit' as we say, can such works be done.

Thomas

Exactly.

Everything Jesus did was in the Power of the Holy Spirit. He didn't start His Ministry until He was baptized and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down and rested upon Him. And what happened after that? Mark's gospel tells us:

"And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him." - Mark 1:12-13

He was driven by the Spirit to the wilderness. He did nothing of His Own Power, though He could have. But He did this to show us how we can be led of this same Spirit also. The miracles were performed in the Power of the Holy Spirit. Recall the woman with the issue of blood. She was healed because she touched the hem of Jesus' garment. Jesus sensed the Power go out of Him. He didn't even know who it was that touched Him, but the Spirit upon Him did.

"...greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

For Jesus sent the Comforter to us after He ascended, so that we could tap into the same Power He had.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by path of one

From “The Deer’s Cry” (St. Patrick’s prayer):
I arise today,
Through the strength of Heaven:
Light of Sun, radiance of Moon, splendor of Fire,
Speed of Lightening, swiftness of Wind, depth of Sea,
Stability of Earth, firmness of Rock.
I arise today, through God’s strength to pilot me:
God’s might to uphold me, God’s wisdom to guide me,
God’s eye to look before me, God’s ear to hear me,
God’s word to speak for me, God’s hand to guard me,
God’s way to lie before me, God’s shield to protect me
From the snare of evil, and from the temptation of vice
Against every power and every person
That may oppose God’s path for me.
Christ be with me, Christ be before me,
Christ behind me, Christ within me,
Christ below me, Christ above me,
Christ on my right hand, Christ on my left.
Christ in my sleeping, Christ in my waking,
Christ in the hearts of all who think of me,
Christ in the mouths of all who speak of me,
Christ in each eye that looks to me,
Christ in all I meet.
Amen

Thank you for posting this. I just finished reading this on beliefnet.com. It is Patrica Heaton's (of Everyone Loves Raymond fame) favorite prayer. Interesting article, BTW.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Silas

You must be a Mormon or a JW. Only cults seem to get this messed up. Jesus was not Created, He is and was and will be the Great and Eternal I Am. How do you understand what Jesus did? The fact that He has all of God's attributes, the fact that He forgives sins and does only what God is said to do, etc.? Do you get tripped up because He obeyed His Father's commands? Why? Do you not see that He's showing us how to live by example? He did the Father's will in operation with the Holy Spirit, like we ought to do. This is so simple and really shouldnt be argued over...you just dont want to believe, as all sinners. Anway, check out the greek word for firstborn in Col. 1:15...It doesnt mean that Jesus was made.

As the bible informs me, Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God, sticking to the bible we never get tripped up , and yes as you mentioned ,Jesus always obeyed his Father Jehovah
Col. 1:15-17, RS: "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things."
John 17:5, RS: "[In prayer Jesus said:] Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made...........yes Jesus being the first-born , was the one that created everything else in the universe, and the power to do it came from his Father.
"Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. proverbs 8;22
Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being
Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was "the first-born of all creation." (Colossians 1:15, NJB)
He was "the beginning of God’s creation." (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). "Beginning" [Greek, ar·khe´] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the ‘beginner’ of God’s creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe´ more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of "beginning." Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God’s invisible creations. and yes i am a Jehovahs witness , we like to stick to the pure word of God .........the bible

[JosephM]

Hi Dondi,

Actually it is Isaiah Chapter 48:16 not 49:16 but lets look at it. One could say that it is God speaking to the house of Jacob / Israel 48:12 but in verse 14 it then becomes Isaiah speaking of the Lord and not the Lord himself. Isaiah saying... COME YE NEAR UNTO ME, HEAR YE THIS; I HAVE NOT SPOKEN IN SECRET FROM THE BEGINNING; FROM THE TIME THAT IT WAS, THERE AM I: AND NOW THE LORD GOD, AND HIS SPIRIT, HATH SENT ME.

"There is" is actually 'Then or thence (sham in Hebrew when referring to time) I' There in time would be more accurately translated 'then' or 'thence' meaning from that time. 'Am' is inserted and was not in the Hebrew. He is not talking about the beginning of the world but most likely about Cyrus the King of Persia from verse 14 who was called to conquer Babylon. To put it in other simple words I might say as Isaiah 'Come closer to me and hear what I have to say. I (Isaiah) have not spoken in secret from the beginning of time that it was. (happened) (the calling of the King to conquer Babylon verse 14) Thence am I (here) and now God and his Spirit has sent me.' (to give you this message to follow)

Then he (Isaiah) changes person and in verse 17 speaks directly for God saying. "Thus saith the Lord" and begins to speak as God and instruct Israel with the message he was given.

So, in my view this does little to the support the trinity if taken from a Jewish standpoint even though all may not agree. It was the Jews writing and the official Jewish standpoint is there is no trinity. Just another view to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Interesting post there thanks. So anything bad is human, but good is not human it comes from a higher being? Satan = our bad intentions and actions... So wouldn't that mean god = our good intentions and actions, meaning there was no god? It was just how you acted, meaning you are either god or Satan? So you choose your own destiny? Not a god. But, if you believe in god, doesn't it say he made Satan? So to believe in a literal god, do you not have to believe in a literal Satan? Just trying to get this straight in my head....... *shruggs*

Anything bad is bad because we have either perceived it to be, when it is really not (i.e., natural disasters and death) or because we have given in to self-centeredness rather than focusing on loving God and each other (i.e., war, poverty, etc.).

Everything good is from God.

No literal Satan, but yes, a literal God.

I'm not stuck in dualism, is all. Our culture and Christianity tends to put us into a dualistic mind-set. Good vs. evil. God vs. Satan. Humanity vs. Nature. Man vs. Woman. And on and on.

Reading the Tao Te Ching and a lot of meditation effectively broke that mind-set for me. So, I'm simply not dualist. I believe we create or personify Satan to excuse ourselves from the responsibility of the bad things that happen in the world, and even from our initial disobedience to God (it wasn't TOTALLY our fault, Satan convinced us to do it). I do not believe we created God; God is everything and beyond everything. By that definition, we'd have had to create our universe in order to create God. It is God's immanence that points toward his immortality, because if He was merely transcendent and not immanent, then He could simply be a thought-form of humans.

Evil certainly exists. Sin exists. But it doesn't have to exist and there are things we can do about it.

God exists, the Universe exists, and there isn't a thing we can do about that.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Cyberpi,

Yes, I did state it with authority as you perceive. I make no excuses and stand by what I said. God is complete, in need of nothing, and in possesion of all things. I understand that all may not grasp that statement at their present understanding and I have no problem with that. No offence was given.

Love in Christ,
JM

Well, does God possess ignorance? Does God possess the hatred seen in the world? Does God possess the lies told on this thread? Does God possess the responsibility for Hurricane Katrina? Does God possess my sins? Were they his... or mine?

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Not true ... It may be abstract but Love is an essence, 'a state of being' and requires no subject/object relationship.

God does not require anything, but by definition love does – love can only exist in relation, without relation, there is no 'reason' for love and no mode of activity.

I would go further to say we cannot 'know' God in any comprehendable fashion outside of a subject/object relationship – and this is what Eckhart was pointing at – Union with God transcends the limit of subject/object so that both 'disappear' or 'cease to exist' but it is patent nonsense to suppose that at the height of Christian mystical experience is ... nothing ... Eckhart was many things, but not agnostic – his God was beyond knowledge in all comprehendable terms, but not in experiential terms ... when people assume that Eckhart means what Zen means, they miss the point.

Thomas

Thomas,

Of course you would say that. How could you say otherwise unless you even for a moment left the duality of subject/object and experienced for yourself. You say love can only exist in relationship. God is Love and Love exists whether you have a relationship or not. It simply is and requires no proof and can be validated expirenctially. Subject and object are only concepts of the mind. Your love is also a concept of mind. God's love is not a concept at all except when expressed in words. Therefore your view is understandable to me.

Love in Christ,
JM

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Godhead – a conundrum ...

There is a common metaphor for Divine Union or mystical experience that likens the individual to a drop of water, and the Divine to the ocean ... the union/experience is when the former becomes one with the latter so that there is no distinction between the two – Eckhart's 'Ground' –

Try an experiment:
Take a pint of water.
Take a drop of water.
Put the drop of water in the pint of water.

... now get it out again.

If, in this Union/Experience, all difference, all self/other, all I/Thou dissolves, how does the one become two once more?

How does the drop find itself apart from the Ocean once the Eternal Moment has passed?

Put another way - Divine Union (in Christian terms) does not mean two become one by the annihilation of one of the ones.

It can only be that the All holds the many in Itself ...
"I know a man in Christ: above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth): That he was caught up into paradise and heard secret words which it is not granted to man to utter."
2 Corinthians 12:2-4

Thomas

Thomas,

Perhaps the One does not become two once more but if it is desired it only need think its a drop once more. Because it was always a part of the ocean in the first place. There is nothing but the ocean. Perhaps the drop is only an illusion in your mind.

Love in Christ,
JM

[mee]

in his prehuman existence, Jesus goes on to say that he was "by his [God’s] side, a master craftsman." (Proverbs 8:30, JB)
In harmony with this role as master craftsman, Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus that "through him God created everything in heaven and on earth."—Today’s English Version (TEV)
So it was by means of this master worker, his junior partner, as it were, that Almighty God created all other things. The Bible summarizes the matter this way: "For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things.
It no doubt was to this master craftsman that God said: "Let us make man in our image." (Genesis 1:26) Some have claimed that the "us" and "our" in this expression indicate a Trinity. But if you were to say, ‘Let us make something for ourselves,’ no one would normally understand this to imply that several persons are combined as one inside of you. You simply mean that two or more individuals will work together on something. So, too, when God used "us" and "our," he was simply addressing another individual, his first spirit creation, the master craftsman, the prehuman Jesus.

[earl]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Oh, yes. This is what I was getting at. The experience, at least for me, is a simultaneous dissolution of subject/object relationship and yet the experience of relationship.

I think this is why I can so easily feel an affinity with Buddhism, but ultimately I can't make the leap away from belief in the One God. Having experienced it, I can see how most of our "selves" are, indeed, false and empty, and yet I also deeply believe and have experienced that beyond this false self there is something... not nothing. There is the opportunity for that emptiness to be filled by Christ.

I absolutely believe no religion, including Christianity, will ever really understand God. It is like being a tiny fish in the ocean- you experience the ocean, it is in every breath- but you can't fathom how it operates or how big it is or even what it looks like. I believe we are in God- this is God's immanence. But because of this immanence we can't possibly grasp Him. And yet, like the fish, we can experience Him. Comprehension impossible, but experience very possible.

Hi path. always appreciate your views (& discussion of your experiences). Just wanted to briefly touch on the part here re Buddhism and the "nothing" beyond the false self. Now my views would probably be heretical to both fundamentalist Buddhists & to dogmatic Chrisitians, but wanted to correct a possible misperception in this. Buddhism is indeed about seeing through false self- and other identifications and see as Buddhists put it sunyata. that is often translated as Void but improperly thought of as Void in the empty sense of nothing. What is actually discovered if one can see through false identifications is not nothing but "everything"-an unbounded plenitude. That plenitude some call God but, of course, Buddhists don't perceive it as a personalized Creator being. Actually their path to me honors what apophatic thought may ultimately be about-when stripped down to no false and/or partial conceptions and identifications, we do not learn that we and everything else don't exist-are nothing-but rather we truly embrace that who we are and what that plenitude is is beyond conceptual understanding. We then embrace ourselves as the delightful Mystery we are with all the creative opening that might imply. By the way, Thomas, love your thought as well and agree with both of you that Love is a verb, (in fact I once posted here long ago something about the etymology of the word "god" being from German with that word meaning to pour-i.e. I suggested perhaps we;d be better off thinking of God as a verb as well ) Have a good one, earl

[lunamoth]

Love is the Unity in a 'fallen' world having the illusion of duality. I agree with Thomas, love is not love without subject and object, lover and beloved. The Trinity expresses this concept of a limitless God in perfect Oneness Who nevertheless loves.

2 c,
luna

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Well, does God possess ignorance? Does God possess the hatred seen in the world? Does God possess the lies told on this thread? Does God possess the responsibility for Hurricane Katrina? Does God possess my sins? Were they his... or mine?

Cyberpi,

They are certainly yours to claim if you see them as reality. And if you created them you can believe you possess them. Yet they will all vanish away as nothing. In reality they cannot be possessed as they are created and are not eternal.

All things, both seen and unseen have no existence without God including the reality given to the things that 'you' believe are ignorance, hatred, lies, disasters and sins. These things, people of the world create and desire to possess but they are illusory in nature. God is beyond such things yet in possesion of all. This is a connundrum to the mind but not beyond experiencing.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Thomas]

So how there is violence and hate growing stronger... day by day, that is god losing? Or his power drawing away... Fading? Because you say god is love... But if there is no love, then is there no god?

No. Simply that man opts not to love.

St Thomas Aquinas posited (I think - from memory) that no man wills evil, but rather we will a 'lesser good' we pander to our passions and our apetites, and in the end become the victim of them.

As the ancients said 'You become what you think about'

Thomas

[Thomas]

Hi Path_of_One:

I think this is why I can so easily feel an affinity with Buddhism, but ultimately I can't make the leap away from belief in the One God.

That's where I was with Zen. As a Tradition I love it. As a Way, it simply does not speak to me.

I absolutely believe no religion, including Christianity, will ever really understand God.
It's not the religion, it's man. 'Religion' is 'right relation' – it's the way given by God.

I believe we are in God - this is God's immanence. But because of this immanence we can't possibly grasp Him. And yet, like the fish, we can experience Him. Comprehension impossible, but experience very possible.

And you can know Him. Or not. The choice is yours, the Way is His.

Thomas

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Thomas

So how there is violence and hate growing stronger... day by day, that is god losing? Or his power drawing away... Fading? Because you say god is love... But if there is no love, then is there no god?

No. Simply that man opts not to love.

St Thomas Aquinas posited (I think - from memory) that no man wills evil, but rather we will a 'lesser good' we pander to our passions and our apetites, and in the end become the victim of them.

As the ancients said 'You become what you think about'

Thomas

Thomas,

Are you quoting someone in your first paragraph? I do not see violence and hate growing stronger. And God has nothing to win or lose in the matter.
Love in Christ,
JM