The Immaculate Conception

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Dor

A couple of questions I have came up with from following this thread Id like to ask for clarification.
If Jesus is the "new" Adam then wouldn't the Church be the "new" Eve? After all Eve was Adam's wife not his morther.

"By reason of the gift and role of her divine motherhood, by which she is united with her Son, the Redeemer, and with her unique graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united to the Church. As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity, and perfect union with Christ.[18] For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called mother and virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother.[19] Through her faith and obedience she gave birth on earth to the very Son of the Father, not through the knowledge of man but by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, in the manner of a new Eve who placed her faith, not in the serpent of old but in God's messenger without wavering in doubt. The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first born among many brethren (Rom. 8:29), that is, the faithful, in whose generation and formation she cooperates with a mother's love. "
-Lumen Gentium Vatican Council II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 21 November 1964

Originally Posted by Dor

Well when Adam sinned it caused the fall of mankind. And we have been told that no man was without sin cause all men fall short of the glory of God..But Jesus was God so he could meet the glory of God and thus he died sinless and washed away the penalty for the rest of us.

I agree with your second sentence. My answer to the question I asked is yes, but if Bandit thought no then we wouldn't have the same conversation as if he agreed with me. So I wished to clarify. The question was really directed at him because I wanted his opinion not because I actually didn’t think I knew the answer. As for your first sentence Romans 5:14 "But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned,after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come." Now Bandit seems to think that this Death is the Second death. I think it is the first, for we will all be resurrected. That is the difference between our ideas that lead to the others, I think (however when I asked this I didn't know that). So my argument is the curse of sin isn't the sin itself. Because Jesus could have died without Original Sin then Death could reign over Mary with out Original Sin. However he thinks Jesus had Original Sin and Wasn’t God until he was Baptized (or something similar to that) However I wasn’t expecting that answer so my point kind of fell through.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by JJM

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I agree with your second sentence. My answer to the question I asked is yes, but if Bandit thought no then we wouldn't have the same conversation as if he agreed with me. So I wished to clarify. The question was really directed at him because I wanted his opinion not because I actually didn’t think I knew the answer. As for your first sentence Romans 5:14 "But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned,after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come." Now Bandit seems to think that this Death is the Second death. I think it is the first, for we will all be resurrected. That is the difference between our ideas that lead to the others, I think (however when I asked this I didn't know that). So my argument is the curse of sin isn't the sin itself. Because Jesus could have died without Original Sin then Death could reign over Mary with out Original Sin. However he thinks Jesus had Original Sin and Wasn’t God until he was Baptized (or something similar to that) However I wasn’t expecting that answer so my point kind of fell through.

i think this is refering to the first death too JJM, there was no second death until after Jesus came to redeem us from the first death... but the other things you mention are more the way I see it, because i believe flesh begets flesh & not spirit of God & then later God begets our spirit.
You will most likely never meet very many like me the way I believe about it all the way through. I am thrilled that you actually understand what I am trying to say, because most cant even acknowledge what I am trying to say.

[PistisSophia]

No disrepect here, but nothing turns me off more than the insistence of there being a voodoo type of occurrence to bring forth an "annointed one"...

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by PistisSophia

No disrepect here, but nothing turns me off more than the insistence of there being a voodoo type of occurrence to bring forth an "annointed one"...

i do not believe there was a vood doo occurence to bring forth Jesus & I dont think the other Christians here do either. and I can't say that Jesus was just AN annointed one...as in the same as in any other annointed one.

That is all everyone does here is share with others what we believe.
So what do you believe about the conception of Jesus and/or Mary, PistisSophia?

[Dor]

Originally Posted by PistisSophia

No disrepect here, but nothing turns me off more than the insistence of there being a voodoo type of occurrence to bring forth an "annointed one"...

No voodoo, he was born of a virgin with a little help from the Father.

[Faithfulservant]

I wouldnt compare the power of God with voodoo magic...lol

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by PistisSophia

No disrepect here, but nothing turns me off more than the insistence of there being a voodoo type of occurrence to bring forth an "annointed one"...

Actually yes that was disrespectful, and you know it.

Q

[PistisSophia]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Actually yes that was disrespectful, and you know it.

Q

I beg pardon, please.

I believe that all the players in the Old Testament and the New Testament were born of man and woman together; perhaps in the spirit of something greater than themselves, but by man and woman, nonetheless.

Somewhere in the Old Testament, and I am not sure where, but there is something about there being an natural explanation for everything, even the miraculous. There is not supposed to be "looking into the future", nor believing anything out of natural order.

I will try to find the exact passage........

Again, I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

I can explain a "burning bush" as lightening, for instance, thus having a natural origin. That's what I believe; that every "miraculous event" has a logic and order in nature.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by PistisSophia

I beg pardon, please.

I believe that all the players in the Old Testament and the New Testament were born of man and woman together; perhaps in the spirit of something greater than themselves, but by man and woman, nonetheless.

Somewhere in the Old Testament, and I am not sure where, but there is something about there being an natural explanation for everything, even the miraculous. There is not supposed to be "looking into the future", nor believing anything out of natural order.

I will try to find the exact passage........

Again, I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

I can explain a "burning bush" as lightening, for instance, thus having a natural origin. That's what I believe; that every "miraculous event" has a logic and order in nature.

No worries mate. The voodoo thing was just a bit hard to swallow. It really isn't like that. When there is no plausible explanation, faith comes strongly into play.

Oh, I do have question for you to consider...How is it that the burning bush, was on fire as we are told, but was never consumed by the flames, as we are also told? Scientifically, in a controled environment, plasma will do this (burn without consuming anything but itself), but this was on a mountainside about 2700 years ago....things that make one go hmmm.

v/r

Q

[Dor]

Or explain the resurrection of Christ.. Or Lazarus for that matter. How about the many miracles of Jesus. How about the Flood? Jonah survived in the belly of a whale for 3 days. Not to mention that 1/3 of the bible is prophecy..