The Immaculate Conception

[InLove]

Hello,

Would anyone care to enlighten me regarding the subject of the Immaculate Conception? (I think this is the right place to post this? If not, I trust it will be moved to a more appropriate board.)

If there are other threads in the forum that address this question, I have not found them yet.

My question is asked for the purpose of education and understanding, so I hope the thread is a peaceful one.

InPeace,
InLove

[truthseeker]

Wonderful question, InLove. Unfortunately, I could only come with a Protestant point of view.

Sounds like a question for a Catholic, Quahom...

[InLove]

All answers interest me, T.S.

And what do you say, Q?

InPeace,
InLove

[Abogado del Diablo]

Check this post: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...4&postcount=12



I included excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia differntiating between the "Immaculate Conception" and the "Virgin Birth." The two are often confused with each other.

[InLove]

Gracias, Abogato--

I will check it out. I feel better now, because for years, I thought the two "concepts (pun not really intended)" were one in the same. Guess I was not alone.

Pasa buen dia--(sorry, don't have all the necessary symbols--hope it doesn't change the meaning)

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

(Sorry about the spelling ) Just a typo--Abogado (gotta proofread before posting--when will I learn?)

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

All answers interest me, T.S.

And what do you say, Q?

InPeace,
InLove

Well,

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

The definition of the Immaculate Conception did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.

Does that explain the concept well enough?

v/r

Q

[InLove]

Thanks, Quahom--extremely helpful. Mind if I dig a little deeper?

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.
Q

I just want to make sure I know what I am talking about--the term "Virgin Birth" always refers to the birth of Jesus? Or should one refer to it as the "Virgin Birth of Christ" for the sake of clarity? Are there Catholic sects that hold forth a belief in an actual "Virgin Birth of Mary"? (I understand that this would not refer to the Immaculate Conception.)

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

Thanks, Quahom--extremely helpful. Mind if I dig a little deeper?


I just want to make sure I know what I am talking about--the term "Virgin Birth" always refers to the birth of Jesus? Or should one refer to it as the "Virgin Birth of Christ" for the sake of clarity? Are there Catholic sects that hold forth a belief in an actual "Virgin Birth of Mary"? (I understand that this would not refer to the Immaculate Conception.)

InPeace,
InLove

If there is (and I'm sure there probably is), it does not conform with the official Catholic doctrine. Virgin Birth always refers to the Birth of Jesus (which is not impossible by the way, just considered improbable. Women have had "virgin" births of children throughout history, but they've always been girls born). The "miracle" is that this "virgin birth" brought forth a male child. By today's scientific understanding of DNA, this causes an eyebrow or two to be raised by the sceptics, and literally a leap of faith by those who believe (including me). When x and x are added together, one does not normally get xy (it violates algebraic principles of math).

But then we don't know everything, now do we...

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

If there is (and I'm sure there probably is), it does not conform with the official Catholic doctrine. Virgin Birth always refers to the Birth of Jesus (which is not impossible by the way, just considered improbable. Women have had "virgin" births of children throughout history, but they've always been girls born). The "miracle" is that this "virgin birth" brought forth a male child. By today's scientific understanding of DNA, this causes an eyebrow or two to be raised by the sceptics, and literally a leap of faith by those who believe (including me). When x and x are added together, one does not normally get xy (it violates algebraic principles of math).

But then we don't know everything, now do we...

v/r

Q

Dear Q,

Let me preface this by saying that I am not trying to question the Virgin Birth of Jesus.

I do question the part I highlighted in blue. Have you got some data?

I'm pretty sure the skeptics are raising their eyebrows over more than the fact that Jesus was male.

My point is that we pretty much have to consider the entire conception and birth of Jesus a miracle. It is literally a leap of faith.

peace,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Dear Q,

Let me preface this by saying that I am not trying to question the Virgin Birth of Jesus.

I do question the part I highlighted in blue. Have you got some data?

I'm pretty sure the skeptics are raising their eyebrows over more than the fact that Jesus was male.

My point is that we pretty much have to consider the entire conception and birth of Jesus a miracle. It is literally a leap of faith.

peace,
lunamoth

I suggest you research "sponteneous conception" and the historical facts about women giving birth (for no reason...they were not known to man), to female children with an identical DNA as themselves. It is a historical fact. It is also within recent (relative history) times. It happens about as much as a child born with both genitalia intact. Surely you don't doubt that, since parents must agonize over the choice of which way to let the child mature...

I didn't make this up. In every situation. The female child (offspring) has identical DNA to the female parent. Goes right along with Siamese Twins, and children born with only their cerabral cortex and nothing else...it happens.

BTW...I didn't highlight anything in any color...I don't know how or why that happened.

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I suggest you research "sponteneous conception" and the historical facts about women giving birth (for no reason...they were not known to man), to female children with an identical DNA as themselves. It is a historical fact. It is also within recent (relative history) times. It happens about as much as a child born with both genitalia intact. Surely you don't doubt that, since parents must agonize over the choice of which way to let the child mature...

I didn't make this up. In every situation. The female child (offspring) has identical DNA to the female parent. Goes right along with Siamese Twins, and children born with only their cerabral cortex and nothing else...it happens.

BTW...I didn't highlight anything in any color...I don't know how or why that happened.

v/r

Q

Hi Q, This has piqued my interest enough that I will research it when I have time (probably tonight). So, you are saying that since the development of DNA testing there have been born spontaneous human clones? Siamese twins result from cell division errors in the first few stages after fertilization. However, to get a sponaneous clone either there has to be an error during meiosis of the the ripening egg in which all of the chromosomes fail to separate and so end up in one egg (and then the egg still behaves like a normal fertilized egg) or two eggs somehow combine and act like a fertilized egg.

Oh, I highlighted your words in blue jsut to be sure there was no mistake about what I was questioning.

Thank you,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Googling spontaneous conception so far has shown that the term is used for any "natural" conception (as opposed to artificial conception using assisted techniques such as IVF).

I'll keep looking. Have any more hints to help the search?

lunamoth

[InLove]

Well-the thread is unwinding, but I don't mind at all--I would like to have more information on this subject, as well--I have never, ever heard of a virgin birth other than that of Christ (and Mary--which I personally discount as either rumor or something worse).

As always, my curiosity is well-intact.

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Googling spontaneous conception so far has shown that the term is used for any "natural" conception (as opposed to artificial conception using assisted techniques such as IVF).

I'll keep looking. Have any more hints to help the search?

lunamoth

parthenogenesis is the term that will help. I'm not going to say "go here, or go there", because that is leading. It is a phenomenon that is strange, but does happen, and there are arguements that it has happened within the human ranks, including recently (relatively speaking, and no I don't mean tabloid news). I will see if I can pull up the articles I saw, for your review.

v/r

Q