The Last Shall Be First...

[lunamoth]

...and the first shall be last.

Is this teaching common in any other religions?

[lunamoth]

OK, I'm thinking that it is at least found in Judaism. Is that correct?

Any others?

[dailogue is the best]

"He is the First, He is the Last, He is the Manifest, He is the Hidden and He knows everything." (the holy Quran, 57:3)

[lunamoth]

Hi Dialogue, Thank you for your reply. I was not really referring to the idea that God is the first and last, the alpha and omega, but that people who are now last/least will have the most, and those who now have the most will end up with the least:

20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.

[dailogue is the best]

Luna, sorry for misunderstanding. You may find the following scripures relevant:

22. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
23. On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
24. Thou wilt recognise in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss.
25. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:
26. The seal thereof will be Musk: And for this let those aspire, who have aspirations:
27. With it will be (given) a mixture of Tasnim:
28. A spring, from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
29. Those in sin used to laugh at those who believed,
30. And whenever they passed by them, used to wink at each other (in mockery);
31. And when they returned to their own people, they would return jesting;
32. And whenever they saw them, they would say, "Behold! These are the people truly astray!"
33. But they had not been sent as keepers over them!
34. But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers:
35. On Thrones (of Dignity) they will command (a sight) (of all things).
36. Will not the Unbelievers have been paid back for what they did? (chapter 83)

PS: You may find a lot of relevant scriptures in the Holy Quran, and in the Prophet Muhamed's (pbuh) sayings.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Luna, sorry for misunderstanding. You may find the following scripures relevant:

22. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
23. On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
24. Thou wilt recognise in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss.
25. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:
26. The seal thereof will be Musk: And for this let those aspire, who have aspirations:
27. With it will be (given) a mixture of Tasnim:
28. A spring, from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
29. Those in sin used to laugh at those who believed,
30. And whenever they passed by them, used to wink at each other (in mockery);
31. And when they returned to their own people, they would return jesting;
32. And whenever they saw them, they would say, "Behold! These are the people truly astray!"
33. But they had not been sent as keepers over them!
34. But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers:
35. On Thrones (of Dignity) they will command (a sight) (of all things).
36. Will not the Unbelievers have been paid back for what they did? (chapter 83)

PS: You may find a lot of relevant scriptures in the Holy Quran, and in the Prophet Muhamed's (pbuh) sayings.

Once again, thank you for your reply. However, this is still not the same idea as I am referring to with the Luke passage. Jesus says many times that the last will be first and the first last, meaning (I believe) the literal poor and downtrodden, those with no power in society. It is an issue of reversal of fortunes, not reward for believers and punishment for non-believers or the wicked.

Even if you are not 'wicked,' but simply if right now you 'have much,' there will come a time when you will not because you 'have already received your reward.'

Is there a similar teaching in Islam?

[wil]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Jesus says many times that the last will be first and the first last, meaning (I believe) the literal poor and downtrodden, those with no power in society. It is an issue of reversal of fortunes, not reward for believers and punishment for non-believers or the wicked.

Even if you are not 'wicked,' but simply if right now you 'have much,' there will come a time when you will not because you 'have already received your reward.'

Do you think that is what it is?

I think it has less to do with wealth than getting caught up in the material world. If you have been ego building, thinking this is all there is, focusing on earthly success, power...not that you've got your reward but you were chasing the wrong reward.

I also don't think it is the poor, many poor maybe doing the above. But those that have dedicated a life to service, maybe they still gained much by their efforts but that was not their focus. Also no requirement of giving up material wealth, just having given up the greed factor, where giving and serving is more important...those traits that are not common in our societies...

[lunamoth]

I think it does has to do with wealth and power, and social justice, not just being detached from material things or subduing your ego. God knows we are material and need material things to live. Much misery comes from our inability to share resources and wealth.

Following Christ is about giving comfort to the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable, changing the paradigm in a most radical way.

[17th Angel]

Uhm... With the Aztec's you had Teteo Inan.... Or known as Coatlicue.... Which was the mother of all gods... Gave birth to the sun, stars, moon other gods and basically everything else, also goverened death and re-birth...... So I guess that could be seen as last(death/the end) and first(life/beginning)

If that isn't where we are going with this and cause it is late I've read into this wrong then ignore me lol....

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Uhm... With the Aztec's you had Teteo Inan.... Or known as Coatlicue.... Which was the mother of all gods... Gave birth to the sun, stars, moon other gods and basically everything else, also goverened death and re-birth...... So I guess that could be seen as last(death/the end) and first(life/beginning)

If that isn't where we are going with this and cause it is late I've read into this wrong then ignore me lol....

Thank you for the post Alex. That is similar to DiB's first post and the idea of God being alpha and omega. But yeah, I was thinking of a different direction. I'll try to find more bible quotes to illustrate, but the beatitudes are the best example of what I mean.

[17th Angel]

I am very sorry I have read the further replies... I will re think it over lol... Sorry once again.

--quick edit--

So we are talking like, blessed are the meek? For they shall have the world right? Those that are meek desire, peace... I think we can see from many other religions that the meek are rewarded.. No wait I still feel like I am not going where this is meant to be..... Nevermind will sleep on it... getting late.. lol.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Alex P

I am very sorry I have read the further replies... I will re think it over lol... Sorry once again.

No need to apologize!

[arthra]

I think there is a kind of reversal idea in the Baha'i Writings..so I consulted Ocean for certain key words like "meek"..

Here's aresult:

They are animalistic; the Manifestations make them human. They are savage and cruel; the Manifestations lead them into kingdoms of light and love. They are unjust; the Manifestations cause them to become just. Man is selfish; they sever him from self and desire. Man is haughty; they make him meek, humble and friendly. He is earthly; they make him heavenly. Men are material; the Manifestations transform them into semblance divine.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 110)

Another:

If thou seekest eternal glory, let thyself be humble and meek in the presence of the beloved of God; make thyself the servant of all, and serve all alike. The service of the friends belongs to God, not to them. 6 Strive to become a source of harmony, spirituality and joyfulness to the hearts of the friends and the maid-servants of the Merciful. This is a cause of great satisfaction to Abdul-Baha.***

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 61)

Therefore, I beseech God that He may bestow upon thee a meek and submissive heart and that He may confirm thee in the service of the divine garden and assist thee to emulate the actions and deeds of the godly ones.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 479)

Adib Taherzadeh quotes a beautitude and draws a parallel to a Qur'anic verse:


"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
And in the Qur'án 28:5:

"We wished to favour those who were weak in the land and make them leaders and heirs."

(Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 182)


Who could doubt that when God's victory is complete, when
harmony between His will and man's has been attained, when the
meek have inherited the earth and the righteous are enthroned,
man's intellectual and moral progress will go forward more
rapidly than ever and will continue indefinitely?

(George Townshend, The Heart of the Gospel, p. 141)

- Art

[lunamoth]

Another example:

Originally Posted by Luke

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Alex P

So we are talking like, blessed are the meek? For they shall have the world right?

Yes, that is what I am getting at, but not just the meek, but also the poor, the weak, the outcast.

And that those who are currently wealthy and in power (and presumably do nothing to help those who are powerless) will 'be last.'

What does it mean to 'be first' or 'be last?' in the context of Luke's beatitudes?