The Love of God

[InLove]

Silas--

I'm sorry--perhaps I haven't. I have read a lot of commentaries about original texts and meanings lately. And I have read a lot of your posts as well. Maybe I got you mixed up with someone else. Please post it if you like. I'm out-of-pocket for a few days, as you know, so I won't be around much. But I will read it as opportunity permits.

InPeace,
InLove

[Silas]

OK guys,

Here's my commentary on John 3. Now I must say, while I was proud of this, since it was my first without help, I feel a bit apprehensive showing you guys this. I feel it may be inadquate. I say this because after seeing A.W. Pink's commantaries, as well as some others, I feel I could have expained more. Though we all say the samethings, those guys did an excellent job, I feel, in ellaborating. So if you have any questions, please ask. I've also included my exegesis on 2Peter 3:9; which is another scripture people who opt for "free will" use to show that Christ died for "ALL" the whole "World." By the way, you guys could do these yourself. You can go to esword and download for free all the different bibles, commantaries, dictionary, Greek and Hebrew wording, etc., and practice good hermanutics to go deeper into the word of God to see how amazing He really is and to see what the scriptures are really saying. You can also check out some great A W Pink books here. If you're Christian, Im certain you'll love these links. Here's my stuff:

My Exegesis of John 3

Nicodemus came to Jesus by night (since he is afraid of what the Pharisees might say) and begins to converse with him. In verse three we have Jesus' amazing teaching of regeneration. "Unless a man is born again, he cannot even "see" the kingdom of God." Question: If an unregenerated person cannot even see the kingdom of God unless they are regenerated or born again, what does this imply? It implies that God must be the author of the faith. In verse four, we see Nicodemus' objection to what he feels is absurdity on Jesus' part, when he ask..."Can a man enter into the womb a second time and be born?" The reason why Nicodemus made this objection was due to the popular Jewish idiom at the time - namely, the phrase "born again," which was in common use among the Jews to denote a change from “Gentilism” to “Judaism” by becoming a proselyte by baptism.

The word with them meant a change from the state of a pagan to that of a Jew. But, they never used it as applicable to a Jew, because they supposed that by his birth every Jew was entitled to all the privileges of the people of God. Therefore, when Jesus used it of a Jew, when he affirmed its necessity of every man, Nicodemus supposed that there was an absurdity in the doctrine. In verse five, we see Jesus not softening his stance, but instead expounds on the doctrine of regeneration when he says, "Unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. In the Old Testament book of Ezekiel, chapter 36 v 25-27, we see the words "water" and "spirit" in context of God speaking of being born again or regeneration.

We read that it is God who first does a work - namely, "sprinkling of water," and "changing stony hearts to hearts of flesh," and "putting His Spirit in spiritually dead men" that they may live. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus that every man, including the Jew, must be born again of water and of the Spirit, before he can even see the kingdom of God. In verse nine, Nicodemus replies, "how can these things be?" My supposition on his question is that he was astonished by Jesus' words and correction of his understanding of what it means to be born again. In the next verse, verse ten, Jesus asks..."Are you a teacher of Israel and yet don't understand these things?" Jesus then goes into teaching about what the Son of Man must do in order that those who trust in Him, may be justified before God.

In verse fourteen, Jesus likens himself to the serpent on the pole of Moses' day, for He too must be lifted up and bear within His body the sins of all the believing world. In verse sixteen, we read one of the most commonly quoted scriptures. At first glance the verse seems to state that Christ died for the whole world, that is to say, everyone without exception. However, the word "world" is used some seven or eight different ways in scripture. And, in context of verse sixteen, which is speaking about those who believes in Jesus, the word "world" is used to describe only believers only, e.g., John 6:33, John 12:47, 1Co. 4:9, 2Co. 5:19. Note: In verse eighteen, we read that those that don't believe are already condemn - past tense.

Those that don't believe are those who have not been regenerated or born again. Question: What does it imply if regeneration and the act of one's faith to believe, must first come from God's sprinkling of water, changing stony hearts to hearts of flesh, and putting His Spirit into a person whereby they may keep His commandments? It implies that those who do not believe are those who God did not perform the acts of which that they might believe (Eze. 36:25-27). In verse nineteen, we read why men are condemned - namely, they hate God and love darkness rather than light.

God is too good a God even if He only saves one person!!

Exegesis on 2Peter 3:9

The word "all" in the greek rarely means the same as all it does in english - namely, the whole and everything and/or everyone without exception. Note:

"the whole world has gone after him." Did all the world go after him? "then went all Judea and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all of Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? Ye are of God, little children, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentiles.

[wil]

Namaste Silas,

I more liken this to Paul's 'I die daily' constantly shedding old belief systems and old ways. The acorn only needs to die once to its seed self to become the oak. But with us humans it seems this born again process is continuous, a daily thing.

I also think the story of Jesus (the light) coming to Nicodemus in the night (darkness) is a representation of Nicodemus knowing the scripture, but not being able to relate it to the day to day world.

That is something that Jesus brought many of us (those of us who couldn't understand the breadth and glory of Judaic thought by itself) Jesus brought us an understanding that we were not able to see ourselves (even though he studied the same scripture).

Our old testament is sorely short of what Judaism is, it is piece, a small piece, even though it takes up 2/3s of our bible, what the Jews study and understand of their scriptures is many times the size of the bible. And many of them, unlike Nicodemus are not in darkness, but bathed in the light and love of G-d. While I am far from any authority on this manner, the times I spend in service or in study with Jews makes me admire their understanding of spirit and heritage all the more.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

The God of the Bible is too Holy to love everyone. Scripture is filled with places where God says He hates certian people. Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Lev. 20:23, Hosea 9:15, etc.

Psalms 5:5 - "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Are we not all workers of iniquity?

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." - Isaiah 64:6

Psalm 5:4-5 - "The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

There are two groups here, the righteous and the wicked. the wicked are those who haven't turned their heart to God, the righteous are those who have. God does not hate them without reason, for those that commit evil are those who have a mind to in the first place. God is trying the children of men, for He seeks those who are seeking Him. This is not an arbitary choosing. It is based on our willingness to love God.

Leviticus 20:22-24 - "Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people."

God abhors the heathen nations becuase they are committing evil. But God makes provisions even in OT times for any Gentile who desire to follow the God of Israel. Look at the example of Rahab. Look at Ruth. Both are from heathen nations, yet God redeemed them.

Hosea 9:15 - "All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters."

Again, it is the wickness that men commit that God hates. You will notice that in this verse that God says, "I will love them no more", which is very telling, for it implies that God loved them up until that time. In other words, God's mercy had been extended as far as He could with these rebellious people. But they refused to turn from their wickness.

[Silas]

Hi wil, hey I always wanted to ask you, what does "Naamaste" mean? My comments are blue.

I more liken this to Paul's 'I die daily' constantly shedding old belief systems and old ways. The acorn only needs to die once to its seed self to become the oak. But with us humans it seems this born again process is continuous, a daily thing.

It is both true that the born again experience a process and a one time thing. Like being born the first time, you had nothing to do with it. One day you were and then you grew into who you are today. Likewise, when we are born again (not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13) we begin a process called "satififcation" whereby we put to death the works of the old nature (which resides in our body) by the aid of the Holy Spirit who lives within us, and we live the new life in Christ by renewing our minds. Since salvation is of the Lord and is a gift that only God alone gives to whomever He wills (John 17:2, Romans 9:17, etc.), the gift will continue on unto eternal life because we didnt choose it. Therefore, God will make sure that we become Holy by satification unto glorification, because He promised it (Ezek. 36:26-27, Philippians 1:5-7, John 3:16, etc., etc.).

I also think the story of Jesus (the light) coming to Nicodemus in the night (darkness) is a representation of Nicodemus knowing the scripture, but not being able to relate it to the day to day world.

You're thinking too hard bro. Just let the text say what they say.

That is something that Jesus brought many of us (those of us who couldn't understand the breadth and glory of Judaic thought by itself) Jesus brought us an understanding that we were not able to see ourselves (even though he studied the same scripture).

Right. All are without understanding (Romans 3..something).

Our old testament is sorely short of what Judaism is, it is piece, a small piece, even though it takes up 2/3s of our bible, what the Jews study and understand of their scriptures is many times the size of the bible. And many of them, unlike Nicodemus are not in darkness, but bathed in the light and love of G-d. While I am far from any authority on this manner, the times I spend in service or in study with Jews makes me admire their understanding of spirit and heritage all the more.

Thats great. But, continue to look to Jesus. He's the fulfillment of the Law that none of us could uphold and He's wisdom and light and God, manifested in human form.

[Silas]

Are we not all workers of iniquity?

Yes and no. Theses a great pardox within the Christian, for he is both a new creation in Christ and counted with all of Christ' righteouness. Yet at the same time, he exist as a sinner who sins but only saved by grace. (Romans 6 and Romans 7 comes to mind concerning this).

There are two groups here, the righteous and the wicked. the wicked are those who haven't turned their heart to God, the righteous are those who have. God does not hate them without reason, for those that commit evil are those who have a mind to in the first place. God is trying the children of men, for He seeks those who are seeking Him. This is not an arbitary choosing. It is based on our willingness to love God.

The only reason why a sinner loves God is because he is made willing. Or, as Ralph Erskine paradoxically puts it, the man is saved "with full consent against his will;" that is, against his old will he is saved. But he is saved with full consent, for he is made willing in the day of God's power. The only reason any are righteous, is because of God's grace in election:

"Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!” But what was the divine response to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
-- Romans 11:3-7

God's election is unconditional and based not on the merit of any sinner, nor on the supposed choice that God foresaw that a sinner would make, but entirely on the grounds of God who shows mercy on equally guilty sinners (Romans 9:12). So all that said, yes there are two kinds of people spoken about: The Righteous - those who are saved by grace and who will give God all the glory in Salvation, and those who are unrighteous - unregenerated sinners who are left to do what their free wills want to do.

God abhors the heathen nations becuase they are committing evil. But God makes provisions even in OT times for any Gentile who desire to follow the God of Israel. Look at the example of Rahab. Look at Ruth. Both are from heathen nations, yet God redeemed them.

Great observation! God does choose to save gentiles in the OT and its not because of some good in them, its again on God's mercy. Look at Jesus' words in 4:16-30. Jesus is reading from Isa.'s scroll and they love him at first, as noted in v22. Then Jesus begans to use 2 stories from their OT scrolls to illustrate God's sovereign unconditional choice in election and they become angry and want to kill Him. Anyone who is ever saved is saved wholly on God's grace. If any of us did anything to deserve it, it wouldnt grace but on works. Moreover, it would give the one saved reason to boast, which God will have None of - He'll get all the glory. The only reason why some repent and believe is because God has been pleased to give them those gifts (faith and repentence). God's sheep will hear Jesus' voice through the preaching of the gospel. Remember, Jesus said..."you dont believe because you are not my sheep" and not you arent my sheep because you dont believe. Read John 10:25-30 and answer me this question:

Does hearing and believing make you a sheep or do you hear and believe beacuse you are a sheep?

Again, it is the wickness that men commit that God hates. You will notice that in this verse that God says, "I will love them no more", which is very telling, for it implies that God loved them up until that time. In other words, God's mercy had been extended as far as He could with these rebellious people. But they refused to turn from their wickness.

I tototally agree! I think you're not understanding what Im saying. Sorry if I have trouble explaining this tough subject. But the truth is, people should come. God said "Come, why will you die?" "Come and dont harden your hearts," etc. Jesus cried over Jerusalem and said "Come, I want to gather you, etc." Yet NONE was coming except those whom God gives grace. The truth is, EVERYONE knows that there is a God and that we need to come to Him because we've broken His laws. Everyone knows this! The heathen in Afarica who cuts down trees and uses half to burn wood and the other half to make an idol KNOWS that that the tree was lifeless and that He shouldnt worship it. The rich educated man in American KNOWS that evolution is a fairytail for grownups, yet he continues to surpress the truth in unrighteouness because he does NOT want to submit to Jesus. Creation and Conscience alone can testify to the fact that there is a God. Everyone is without excuse before God. So again, God gives us - everyone, a chance to come (as to be fair) eventhough he knows none but the elect will come. And He saves some because if he didnt, not only would none come, but he wouldnt be revealed for the loving God that He is.

[Dondi]

Imagine for a moment that you are a father to a dozen kids. You have tried your best to instill on them you moral values and raise them right. Yet, there are only two of them who end up doing right and the other ten turn wayward. As a merciful father, you desire see what you can do to provide salvation, but you decide that only five of you wayward children will get saved. So you force this salvation on those five you've chosen and leave the rest to self-destruct. No matter what these remaining wayward five do, they are not getting saved, for you have foreordained it. They are not the elect. But you decide to love the other five, so whether they like it or not, they are getting saved. For they are the elect.

Do you see the fallacy here?

What did Jesus say about our Heavenly Father?

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" - Luke 11:9-13

Even I can see that as a human father, I would want all my children to be saved. I have no pleasure in seeing my children ruining their lives. And the fact is that I would love my children no matter what they did. And as much as they would grieve my heart, I would try and seek for their their best, pray for their return, and, like the father of the Prodigal Son, always have my arms open to recieve them again.

And if this passage is any indication, then God ought to have more love for His children than I do. Therefore God should love all His children.

The problem lies not with God, but with His children. God will do everything to save us. God loves everyone. But it is we who refuse to return to that Love.

Did the father of the Prodigal Son have supernatural influence to make him come back? Or did the Prodigal Son return of his own accord?

[moseslmpg]

Silas, I think you're supposition that God does not love everyone contradicts some of the stuff in your first post. If Jesus only died for the believers, then what was the point of the whole thing? The believers already believed, and I assume seeing some guy die on a cross didn't change much for them. If God can't love everyone just because they don't worship Him, then His love is not unconditional is it? And if, as is quoted above, He stops loving people after a point, then His love is not really eternal either.

And even though kosmos (assuming this is the word they use) has more than one definition, I think it's clear in the context that they mean the whole world or universe, with the other definitions presumably being derived from this meaning.

[Silas]

Imagine for a moment that you are a father to a dozen kids. You have tried your best to instill on them you moral values and raise them right. Yet, there are only two of them who end up doing right and the other ten turn wayward. As a merciful father, you desire see what you can do to provide salvation, but you decide that only five of you wayward children will get saved. So you force this salvation on those five you've chosen and leave the rest to self-destruct. No matter what these remaining wayward five do, they are not getting saved, for you have foreordained it. They are not the elect. But you decide to love the other five, so whether they like it or not, they are getting saved. For they are the elect. Do you see the fallacy here?

First of all, God does force salvation on anyone. Do not image that the elect saint is draged kicking and screaming to Heaven. The Holy Spirit makes the sinner willing and the sinner sees Christ to be the precious jewl that He is. Its called "effectual calling." Seconly, election hurts no one. Sinners choose in and of their free wills not to deny self and follow Jesus. They choose to go to hell. You must first understand the sin and the power it has over sinners to understand unconditional election. Sinners are willling slaves because their wills are in bondage to sin. Its the conseqence of the fall.

What did Jesus say about our Heavenly Father? "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" - Luke 11:9-13

First thing first, look at who Jesus is talking to. Thats my first point. Second, look at every scripture that tells us to come. For every one that says "come" there are two that says we cannot, e.g., Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized" (Acts 2:38) versus, "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn. 3:3) or, Repent therefore and be converted" (Acts 3:19 versus, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Jn. 6:44) or, Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17) verus, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5:6) etc. Its plane to see that God commands us to come eventhough He knows we will not and cannot. He's not being disingenous, but instead teaching something - namely, man's unwillingness to not come.

Even I can see that as a human father, I would want all my children to be saved. I have no pleasure in seeing my children ruining their lives. And the fact is that I would love my children no matter what they did. And as much as they would grieve my heart, I would try and seek for their their best, pray for their return, and, like the father of the Prodigal Son, always have my arms open to recieve them again.

Amen! God does want everyone to come to Him even though he elects only some. That much is evident from scripture. Why? Because God knows that none would come, so he saves some. Scriptures are so clear. Im surprised that there is a debate between freewill and predestination at all. Here's a good ariticle to read here:

And if this passage is any indication, then God ought to have more love for His children than I do. Therefore God should love all His children.

Amen. But since God is holy and does everything for His own glory and for the sake of His own name (even saving people - 2 Samuel 7:23, Isa. 48:9-11, etc.), He permits that some be lost. Why? Because if He doesnt elect, none would be saved. God's election is design to save people to the priase and glory of His grace.

The problem lies not with God, but with His children. God will do everything to save us. God loves everyone. But it is we who refuse to return to that Love.

I totally agree! Thats why God elects some. Who chose Abraham - God or Abraham? Who chose Noah, Noah or God? Who chose Moses or David? Them or God? Who chose the Apostles, them or God? Who chose you, God or you? If it be God, does the Bible say it was on your foreseen faith or because God gave you faith and chose you to believe and be conformed into the image of His son. Thats the question. I believe the latter. God chooses to save some by grace alone through the faith alone, which He gives them, and in Christ alone, who is been made the propeitation for our sins.

Did the father of the Prodigal Son have supernatural influence to make him come back? Or did the Prodigal Son return of his own accord?

Good question. Before I answer, notice the brother of the prodigal son who was with the father left and never come back. The save ones (sheep) sin of their own accord, but always come back and not only with/in faith, but with godly sorrow. Jesus is our Savior and High preist who interceeds for His sheep. The Father ALAWAYS answers the Son's prayers. Jesus said in scripture that He ONLY prayers for His Sheep - the Ones the Father has given to Him from out of the world (John 17:9 - Read all of John 17), and because of it, they repent and keep the faith as noted in Luke 22:31. The ONLY reason any Christian repent and come back to the Father is because of Jesus' prayers and because the Spirit of God in us who both does the willing and working in us to bring about God (Phil 2:13). Salvation is from start to finish ALL of God, thats why He gets ALL the glory. Its amazing grace that any are saved!

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Silas, I think you're supposition that God does not love everyone contradicts some of the stuff in your first post. If Jesus only died for the believers, then what was the point of the whole thing? The believers already believed, and I assume seeing some guy die on a cross didn't change much for them. If God can't love everyone just because they don't worship Him, then His love is not unconditional is it? And if, as is quoted above, He stops loving people after a point, then His love is not really eternal either.

And even though kosmos (assuming this is the word they use) has more than one definition, I think it's clear in the context that they mean the whole world or universe, with the other definitions presumably being derived from this meaning.

Let me clarify something here. I did not wish to imply that God stops loving people, for His Love is eternal. But I do think there is a point when God turns them over to their sin, as indicated in the example of Romans 1:24-26:

"Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:"

"He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." - Proverbs 29:1

Often we see God grieved at the nation of Israel, even to the point that He was ready to just wipe them out, save for the intercession of Moses. And that is the thing that we have hope in as far as the salvation of our loved ones, that as long as someone is interceding for them, God will have mercy.

[Silas]

If Jesus only died for the believers, then what was the point of the whole thing?

To pay for their sins. God is way too holy to let sin go by (Rom. 3:25 and many, many others). Jesus is the propeitiation or scapegoat for God's chosen people, who is from out of every nation, tounge, and tribe. In other words, Jesus came to live a perfect life, which is imputed to the sinner's account, and then He died a perfect sacrifice, whereby all the sinner's sins may be imputed to Jesus and have Him pay their sin bill, as it were. The the trade has been made: Sinner's get Jesus' righteouness and are justified before God, and Jesus' pays for their sin and justify God's righteouness and Holiness. This was the reason the Word was manifested into flesh - to fulfill the duty of the 2nd person of the Godhead - to pay for sin.

The believers already believed, and I assume seeing some guy die on a cross didn't change much for them.

None believed. God chose from the same group of wicked sinners some to display His mercy and grace, and left the rest to their own choices to display His justice and wrath. Much like this: Suppose you and I were in jail for stealing. The jailer comes to me and says, "aye Silas, the governer has chosen to give you mercy, you are free to go." Who do I have to thank? No one but the governer, thats who. Who do you have to blame for being jail. No one but you, thats who. Its the same way with sinners. Elects have no one to thank but God. Nonelects have no one to blame but themselves. So you should ask: "How do you know you are elect?" When you hear the gospel, that a Holy God who demands all sins be paid for, sent His beloved Son to suffer and die in sinners place. If you repent and believe and continue till then end of your life - you are an elect.

If God can't love everyone just because they don't worship Him, then His love is not unconditional is it? And if, as is quoted above, He stops loving people after a point, then His love is not really eternal either.

Exactly. God is NOT all Loving, nor is He obligated to love anyone. God is Three times Holy and ALL of His perfect attributes flow from His Holiness. Since God by nature is reqiured to be Holy, I am VERY suprised that He loves any of us sinners at all! I feel like those dudes in scripture who say..."What is man that you should be mindful of us?" What amazing Love and Grace! I wish that ALL who hear the gospel would believe!

And even though kosmos (assuming this is the word they use) has more than one definition, I think it's clear in the context that they mean the whole world or universe, with the other definitions presumably being derived from this meaning.

Yes Kosmos is world. World is used of unbelievers, believers, whole universe, etc. In context of John 3 and especially v 16, its speaking of those born again, believers, etc.

[Cage]

Silas, can I give my view of God's Love? Gods Love to me is unconditional, and for all who choose it over the lusts of the flesh. I view it as an adoption process. God calls all for adoption through his Spirit, which was made manifest in Christ, but in order for us to recieve, we must first choose to be adopted and embrace his Spirit, which is Love. Surly there is more to God than Love, but I believe Love is the core of his essence, Holiness, and Justice.

Many would have you believe that his Love is exclusive and only for those whom put faith in Jesus, But Jesus was inclusive: 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

You stake your claim in an exclusive dogma, while Christ himself is not willing for any to perish. I beleve the truth is that Gods love is for all who choose to embrace it. We are all called, but few accept that calling, and many resist God's all encompassing Love. We are none more special than another, we are all human, and when you catagorize, and attempt to limit Gods Love, you limit self, and the Love God wants you to embrace and extent towards your fellow man...

God is not an intellectual pursuit, imo. He deals with the heart, and he knows the heart of man. It is by his Grace that any are saved, but that Grace comes by way of embracing his Spirit...


Love,

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

First of all, God does force salvation on anyone. Do not image that the elect saint is draged kicking and screaming to Heaven. The Holy Spirit makes the sinner willing and the sinner sees Christ to be the precious jewl that He is. Its called "effectual calling." Seconly, election hurts no one. Sinners choose in and of their free wills not to deny self and follow Jesus. They choose to go to hell. You must first understand the sin and the power it has over sinners to understand unconditional election. Sinners are willling slaves because their wills are in bondage to sin. Its the conseqence of the fall.

God forces salvation on anyone? I'm assuming you meant God does NOT force salvation on anyone. But then you turn around and say that the Holy Spirit makes the sinner willing. You say that the sinners choose to go to hell. But if you understand the scriptures, we are already sinners on our way to hell. The choice is already initially made. The choice comes in calling on the name of the Lord for salvation.

I do understand the power of sin. We, in and of ourselves, cannot save ourselves. However, that does not preclude us from the ability to seek help. God throws the lifeline out into the drowning sea, but we have to grab hold of it, so then God can pull us back in.

And I've never heard of the term "effectual calling". Is that a biblical term?

First thing first, look at who Jesus is talking to. Thats my first point. Second, look at every scripture that tells us to come. For every one that says "come" there are two that says we cannot, e.g.,

Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized" (Acts 2:38) versus, "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn. 3:3) or, Repent therefore and be converted" (Acts 3:19 versus, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Jn. 6:44) or, Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17) verus, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5:6) etc. Its plane to see that God commands us to come eventhough He knows we will not and cannot. He's not being disingenous, but instead teaching something - namely, man's unwillingness to not come.

Repent, yes. That is our response to the call. Then we are converted. we don't come on our own stregnth, but if we are willing to repent, then his power is affected.

You make absolutely no sense when you say that God commands us to come even though he knows we will not and cannot. There is a big difference between being willing and being able. The point that we are not able apart from the Spirit of God, I whole heartedly agree with. But God leaves it up to us to heed the command.

Amen! God does want everyone to come to Him even though he elects only some. That much is evident from scripture. Why? Because God knows that none would come, so he saves some. Scriptures are so clear. Im surprised that there is a debate between freewill and predestination at all. Here's a good ariticle to read here:

Why are you surprised at this. This debate has been going on for centuries. Did you ever think that it might be God's will for us to have the capacity to decide whether or not we are willing to choose Him. that is freewill. if we don't have free will in that regard, then our love to Him is contrived and disingenious, for if He makes us love Him, then it is not love at all, but compulsion.

You ever hear of the saying, "If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were."

Amen. But since God is holy and does everything for His own glory and for the sake of His own name (even saving people - 2 Samuel 7:23, Isa. 48:9-11, etc.), He permits that some be lost. Why? Because if He doesnt elect, none would be saved. God's election is design to save people to the priase and glory of His grace.

"And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?" - 2 Samuel 7:23

Keep in mind, Israel was chosen for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world as Savior. This is a promise way back to Abraham, indeed way back to Eve in Genesis 3:15, in which through Abraham's seed, all the nations of the world will be blessed. When you refer to Israel as being God's elect, it is in this purpose that they are elected, not salvation. Not all of Israel were saved, for there were those that rebelled, by choice.

I totally agree! Thats why God elects some. Who chose Abraham - God or Abraham? Who chose Noah, Noah or God? Who chose Moses or David? Them or God? Who chose the Apostles, them or God? Who chose you, God or you? If it be God, does the Bible say it was on your foreseen faith or because God gave you faith and chose you to believe and be conformed into the image of His son. Thats the question. I believe the latter. God chooses to save some by grace alone through the faith alone, which He gives them, and in Christ alone, who is been made the propeitation for our sins.

Again, see my comments above about the election for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world, not for the purpose of salvation.

Good question. Before I answer, notice the brother of the prodigal son who was with the father left and never come back. The save ones (sheep) sin of their own accord, but always come back and not only with/in faith, but with godly sorrow. Jesus is our Savior and High preist who interceeds for His sheep. The Father ALAWAYS answers the Son's prayers. Jesus said in scripture that He ONLY prayers for His Sheep - the Ones the Father has given to Him from out of the world (John 17:9 - Read all of John 17), and because of it, they keep repent and keep the faith as noted in Luke 22:31. The ONLY reason any Christian repent and come back to the Father is because of Jesus' prayers and because the Spirit of God in us who both does the willing and working in us to bring about God (Phil 2:13). Salvation is from start to finish ALL of God, thats why He gets ALL the glory. Its amazing grace that any are saved!

Where do you get the idea that the older brother left and wouldn't come back? The brother represents those who didn't stray from God. In fact, the father confirms the older brother's sonship forever:

"And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." - Luke 15:31-32

The prodigal son is the one who "was dead, and is alive again, was lost, and is found."

Now as to John 17, Jesus is praying about His disciples. Jesus here is praying in regards to the purpose of the disciples, whom, "...I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."

The disciples are commissioned to spread the gospel and it is in this context that Jesus thanks God for giving the disciples to Him. the reason he is not praying for the world is because the world has not received the Word as the disciples have, at least not yet. (For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God..." - I Cor. 3:19) They will be sent out after His resurrection.

Later, Jesus prays for those that will believe on Him, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" notice that Jesus prays for those who will be saved through their belief (an act of the will), that they will be one in the mission that "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

This prayer of Jesus is for the spreading of the Gospel, not of salvation. It is the Word that will quicken hearts that they (the world) might believe. that word might speaks of the possibility that everyone will believe.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." - Phil 2:13

Of course, you realize that the Apostle Paul was speaking to those already saved as indicated in Phil. 1:1,

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:"

Once we are saved, God will work in us to will and do His good pleasure. But it is a cooperative relationship with the Lord as we obey Him,. Look at the verse preceding:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Phil. 2:12

These are folks already obeying the Lord, not those who are yet to be saved.

[Silas]

Silas, can I give my view of God's Love? Gods Love to me is unconditional, and for all who choose it over the lusts of the flesh. I view it as an adoption process. God calls all for adoption through his Spirit, which was made manifest in Christ, but in order for us to recieve, we must first choose to be adopted and embrace his Spirit, which is Love. Surly there is more to God than Love, but I believe Love is the core of his essence, Holiness, and Justice.

I agree with this. My only thing is that I say with the Bible, the only reason why anyone chooses God is because God inables them too. Then the saying is true: We love Him because He first loved us.

Many would have you believe that his Love is exclusive and only for those whom put faith in Jesus, But Jesus was inclusive: 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Thats 2 Peter 3:9. Read it again. The Lord is not slack concerning his peromise as some men ( tis - meaning a certain one or certain ones)any (tis - meaning a certain one or certain ones) should persish but that all come to repentance. Here's the first exgesis - its an easy one:

Who is the "us-ward" refering to? One verse above - verse 8, tells us, its the "beloved." OK, so read from verse one and it says..."This is now the second letter Im writting to you beloved." OK, so look at the first letter, verse one - 1Peter 1:1-2 and it says that both epistles or letters are written to the elect (the kjv says by God's forknoweldge, but thats another subject that I'll talk about later if someone brings it up).

Here's the second exegesis - a more indebth one:

Look at the highlighted words in 2 Peter 3:9: the words "some men" and "any." Notice they are the SAME greek words and have the same meanings. Therefore, the verse can be read in its orignal..."The Lord is not slack concerning his peromise as certian ones count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that certain ones should persish but that all (of the cetian ones - elect) come to repentance. This is why Chrisitans shouldnt be lazy when studying their bibles. This is God's words and its embarrasing when we dont study it and marvel over it. I confess, I dont read it nearly as much as I should. But again, its good not to be lazy and be digila count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that nt when studying these deep truths. Practice good hermanutics and learn what God has revealed to us, its amazing! As Proverbs 25:2 says..." It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

You stake your claim in an exclusive dogma, while Christ himself is not willing for any to perish.

I believed I showed from enough scripture that that isnt true. Christ himself said that he came only for his own sheep.

I beleve the truth is that Gods love is for all who choose to embrace it.

Again, I agree - to a point. Some are made willing and thus choose. Others are left to themselves.

We are all called, but few accept that calling, and many resist God's all encompassing Love. We are none more special than another, we are all human, and when you catagorize, and attempt to limit Gods Love, you limit self, and the Love God wants you to embrace and extent towards your fellow man...

I agree!! None are better than another. All are equally guilty. All are sinners. The ONLY reason that we arent as bad as we could be is because God does not premit it. God is that much in control of our lives, as evident from scripture.

God is not an intellectual pursuit, imo. He deals with the heart, and he knows the heart of man. It is by his Grace that any are saved, but that Grace comes by way of embracing his Spirit...

I agree, God looks at the heart and knows that the heart is desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9). Again, some have been given Sovereign grace and they are saved because of it. Look into these things and be a good Bearean to see if I'm right. Grace is really amazing! Most dont know how much!

[Dondi]

What quickens a man's heart? The Word of God (Hebrews 4:12). How does faith come? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Now the message of the Bible is that salvation is by faith through Christ. When someone is preached the Gospel, the Holy Spirit will use the Word to convict the hearts of people. It is at this point where God reaches out to the person, the Holy Spirit. Some will respond and be saved, some will resist. "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." - Acts 7:51 So the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Why? Because people are stubborn. They choose to resist the Spirit of God. This tells me that the responsibility to come to God is on us. God is willing to regenerate us, but we have to be willing. God didn't twist the arms of these people who Stephen preach to. But it was they who resisted.

I knew an evangelist who used to be a drunkard. His wife implored him to receive Christ and implored him to come to church. This dear lady prayed for fourteen years for her husband to be saved. But he kept his ways. Finally, he decided to go to church lest the woman annoy him to death about it. When he went to church, he heard the Word and the Holy Spirit convicted his heart. At the end of the service at altar call, he resisted going to get saved, but then relented just to get his wife to stop bugging. So he went forward and knelt down, and then broke down in tears before God and gave his life to the Lord.

I believe that this dear lady's prayer for fourteen years was answered by God to reach out to her husband. I believe that it would have been God's will that he gotten saved earlier, if he didn't resist the Spirit of God. I also believe that her prays activated that conviction of the Spirit of God in the man's life.

Yes, yes, it is God's salvation. But it's our choice whether we come freely.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." - Rev 22:17

The Spirit of God said 'Come' to this man, and The bride (the man's wife) also said 'Come'. But do we will?