The Message

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

What does 'tough love' mean to you? If not with 'tough love', then how do you love your children and family?

I define tough love as approach to an individual situation with an open mind and heart, but sticking to my principles.

I know that it's difficult, but definitions can't change or you will be waffling all over the place.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Actually when Christ was on the earth, it was brand new info to the gentiles.

You receive brand new info daily.

Originally Posted by pattimax

I define tough love as approach to an individual situation with an open mind and heart, but sticking to my principles.

I know that it's difficult, but definitions can't change or you will be waffling all over the place.

Definitions can change because people can change, and that does not necessarily mean waffling.

Is a person's mind or heart open when they reject hearing rebuke? No.

On this thread, will spoke against "tough love" claiming essentially that it is un-christian. I did not define "tough love". I am merely saying lets be clear on what "tough love" is.

[wil]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

On this thread, will spoke against "tough love" claiming essentially that it is un-christian. I did not define "tough love". I am merely saying lets be clear on what "tough love" is.

Namaste Cyberpi,

What I am referring to is those that chastise, belittle, coerce, folks regarding their beliefs, indicating that they must do as they do in order to find salvation.

The typical claim is that they are doing this out of compassion to save their soul, this is what I referred to as often called 'tough love'.

I think it is completely counter to the actual message of Jesus that we are discussing here.

Originally Posted by CCS

"Love your enemies" allows that there are enemies

Namaste Sunflower,

I love that observation, the indication that we have enemies. I think if we followed the information contained within this scripture to the letter, and kept going to n+1, our perceived enemies would disappear, however currently we perceive them. And we need to start where we are.

Originally Posted by Joedjr

It can't be that we don't have a right to self defense.

Namaste Joe,

It is a choice, self defense, it isn''t a non-violent choice. It is an elevated concept for sure that Christ has given us. WWJD? He pondered, take this cup from me, he made a choice. We to can support violence by violence, or make a choice.

It seems to me Jesus raised the bar, and asked us to reach for it. This is a completely personal thing. We aren't to tell others to love their enemy, or others to give, or forgive, those are their choices. This teaching is for us to strive to be a better person, to get the mind of Christ in me.

[Xavier Breath]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Let's not get all freaky. "Love your enemies" allows that there are enemies, and that they do fall under the golden rule clause. I don't think we're expected to make martyrs of ourselves to satisfy the letter of the law of love. Are our enemies the same as our brothers? Are they neighbors? If someone can make the argument that enemies, brethren, and neighbors are all the same I'd like to hear it.

How do we expect our enemies to treat us? With chivalry certainly, but what beyond that?

Chris

If our goal is to become Christ-like, then indeed, we should martyr ourselves for our enemies. Christ gave His life not for those who loved Him, but for those who hated, and despised, and at best did not even know Him. We are told that "no greater love has any man than that he lay down his life for his friends", but in fact laying down ones life for ones enemies shows even greater love.
In the sense that Christ died for all, and the Gift of salvation is bought and paid for and waiting to be accepted even by my enemies, they are for purposes of this discussion exactly the same as neighbors and brothers. Christ did not selectively die for only the "nice" people. He paid, mostly in advance, for the hateful, selfish, hurtful, and in any other way sinful acts of even the most despicable person; are we to decide who was worthy of the Gift? Or are we, according to scripture, rather charged with loving that most despicable person, and doing good for them, in hope that they will see a glimpse of the reflection of Christ in us, and be persuaded to accept the Gift?
Christ corrected those in error, but always in love (except maybe that dust-up in the temple... I see that as choosing to disturb the current peace to avert a great evil threatening the peace of many for generations). Jesus allowed the wayward listener to convict themselves. When we "sink to the level" of our enemies, we justify their selfishness and evil.
All of this is difficult to apply, but I believe that it is indeed the heart of the message, and that this IS to be taken literally, and it IS practical.
I just came through a trial in this very area, and I can tell you that as hard as it was, with God's help and much prayer, I managed to clear out the harsh feelings, swallow my hurt and pride, and repay my enemies' selfishness and meanness with kind words, blessings, and grace. The outcome might not have been any different, but the amount of turmoil and disturbance in the world was diminished! This is how the Kingdom of God will be advanced in this world.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by wil

What I am referring to is those that chastise, belittle, coerce, folks regarding their beliefs, indicating that they must do as they do in order to find salvation.

Well, do you LOVE your children? If your child does something that is off from what you know, headed for a pit, what do you do? Simply watch? Remain silent? Punish your beliefs into them? Do you NOT chastise and belittle the activities and poor choices that you believe will get them into trouble? Do you praise the behaviour you believe will keep them out of trouble? Or do you avoid rebuke and judgment, and simply enable your children to do whatever they please? Do you beat your beliefs into them? Do you simply NOT lay down ground rules? Do you teach the beliefs and lessons that you've learned, or do you force your children out to go learn their own lessons the hard way from somewhere else?

Originally Posted by wil

I think it is completely counter to the actual message of Jesus that we are discussing here.

I find the phrase 'tough love' has a positive and important meaning in the halls of AA, NA, foundations, philanthropy, charity, medicine, schools, and parenting. When I look in the gospels, I see that it is what Jesus did.

[wil]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Well, do you LOVE your children? If your child does something that is off from what you know, headed for a pit, what do you do? Simply watch? Remain silent? Punish your beliefs into them? Do you NOT chastise and belittle the activities and poor choices that you believe will get them into trouble? Do you praise the behaviour you believe will keep them out of trouble? Or do you avoid rebuke and judgment, and simply enable your children to do whatever they please? Do you beat your beliefs into them? Do you simply NOT lay down ground rules? Do you teach the beliefs and lessons that you've learned, or do you force your children out to go learn their own lessons the hard way from somewhere else?

I find the phrase 'tough love' has a positive and important meaning in the halls of AA, NA, foundations, philanthropy, charity, medicine, schools, and parenting. When I look in the gospels, I see that it is what Jesus did.

Oh my kids are in my Sunday school class. But I surely don't beat it into them or berate them about it. I hope upon hope that I am raising them into thinking individuals and what they end up believing will be upto them.

Do I judge, yup, control yup, but do I feel that that is what Jesus taught in these passages...nope...slipping I am. Thay said it when refering to our garden, if we were growing cabbages or roses and they weren't growing as we wished what would we do? Would we beat them, yell at them, or would we provide the care and nutrition they need?? Gibran also said it wonderfully in his treatise on children.

I give my children and those around me information. How they use it is upto them. Do I wish them to make the mistakes I made? No more than my parents did, yet I had to learn on my own, I expect my children will be similar. I have no interest in raising automatons or regurgitators. If they decide to listen or follow the teachings of Christ, it will be due to my example, not my belt or tongue.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by wil

Thay said it when refering to our garden, if we were growing cabbages or roses and they weren't growing as we wished what would we do? Would we beat them, yell at them, or would we provide the care and nutrition they need??

Originally Posted by wil

I have no interest in raising automatons or regurgitators.

Then why do you advise raising them as if they were plants??? Do you like to be treated like a plant? Does a plant have a free will? A plant does not have ears... do you wish your children to have ears?

When you hear a judgment or a rebuke, does it remove from your will... or does it give you more information to make choices from?

[wil]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Then why do you advise raising them as if they were plants??? Do you like to be treated like a plant? Does a plant have a free will? A plant does not have ears... do you wish your children to have ears?

When you hear a judgment or a rebuke, does it remove from your will... or does it give you more information to make choices from?

So you believe feeding and nurturing is incorrect? Caring and compassion is wrong?

I am hearing rebukes and judgment, and you have free will to make your choices in this regard. It does give me information, should I offer you my coat?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Is a person who judges and rebukes necessarily a hypocrite? Non-loving, perhaps?

It depends. I have to discipline my children. That involves judgment and rebuking. There are a lot of other texts in the Bible that explore our responsibility toward others. We're not supposed to place a stumbling block in the path of others, for example, and we're supposed to discharge our civic duties. There's a lot more to it than just roping off the beatitudes.

Chris

[Joedjr]

Originally Posted by wil

It seems to me Jesus raised the bar, and asked us to reach for it. This is a completely personal thing. We aren't to tell others to love their enemy, or others to give, or forgive, those are their choices. This teaching is for us to strive to be a better person, to get the mind of Christ in me.

Hi Wil,
I agree that Jesus asks us to elevate the way in which we are to live. Could this teaching be only for the group that was / is listening though? Is Jesus directing His comments to us as His family or tribal group only? For those of us willing to join this group He shares His ideas on what makes a better Way. In our town and local cities the golden rule is the rule, but for those outside the city gate they might have their own rule. This thought comes somewhat from the OT. We read thou shalt not kill, but G-D orders the death of many, so His people are protected against straying form His word. Could the thou shall not kill, be directed only to that family tribal group? This is were my thought of self defense comes. In my country, in my town, on my street the golden rule makes our world a better place. Can an outsider come and take away my "promised land", I'm not to sure that I'm being asked to give it up.

Joe

[wil]

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Hi Wil,
I agree that Jesus asks us to elevate the way in which we are to live. Could this teaching be only for the group that was / is listening though? Is Jesus directing His comments to us as His family or tribal group only? For those of us willing to join this group He shares His ideas on what makes a better Way. In our town and local cities the golden rule is the rule, but for those outside the city gate they might have their own rule. This thought comes somewhat from the OT. We read thou shalt not kill, but G-D orders the death of many, so His people are protected against straying form His word. Could the thou shall not kill, be directed only to that family tribal group? This is were my thought of self defense comes. In my country, in my town, on my street the golden rule makes our world a better place. Can an outsider come and take away my "promised land", I'm not to sure that I'm being asked to give it up.

Namaste Joe,

I think this passage makes that clear. He speaks of those who love their family, ordinary sinners do that...no bennies for that. He asks us to step outta the box and provide more than we are asked for for all. No restrictions, love thy enemy within the walls you perceive, not.

He's not asking us to do it when it is easy or when it is safe, but let peace begin with me.

[mee]

TODAY, The message is a twofold message. GOODNEWS and a WARNING

God’s people are symbolized by locusts in the book of Revelation

Revelation 9:3, 4.
Think about how thorough these little creatures are.

Joel put it this way: "Like powerful men they run. Like men of war they go up a wall. And they go each one in his own ways, and they do not alter their paths. And one another they do not shove. As an able-bodied man in his course, they keep going; and should some fall even among the missiles, the others do not break off course." (Joel 2:7, 8)

No "wall" of opposition would deter them and the plague they were causing. "Should some fall even among the missiles," as has been the case with loyal Christians who have been executed by oppressive enemies, others take over the work, accomplishing the mission that Jehovah has for them.



YES, those insects are determined to proclaim THE DAY OF JEHOVAH


"How comely upon the mountains are the feet of the one . . . bringing good news of something better."—ISAIAH 52:7.

(Romans 10:15) How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: "How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!"

(Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

Revelation 14:6) And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

ITS ALL HAPPENING

[wil]

Originally Posted by wil

But my question is, with all our questioning of other Christians as to what and how they should think, with all our looking at other faiths and telling them they have to come over and be saved and learn our 'truth' how does all that fit in with what Jesus is said to have said according to this passage from Luke 6? Yeah, we got tons of other quotes and scripture we can pull out, I am not asking on this thread about that, I'm asking about these particular admonishments, how do we stack up??

Originally Posted by mee

TODAY, The message is a twofold message. GOODNEWS and a WARNING ITS ALL HAPPENING

Namaste mee,

Yes we have freewill to derail threads as we please I suppose. But it was a simple request. Discussing Luke 6: 28-37, we've got hundreds of threads where you've inserted your warnings. If you'd like to discuss the text in this thread you are welcomed with open arms, thank you.

[mee]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste mee,

Yes we have freewill to derail threads as we please I suppose. But it was a simple request. Discussing Luke 6: 28-37, we've got hundreds of threads where you've inserted your warnings. If you'd like to discuss the text in this thread you are welcomed with open arms, thank you.

and i have ,the message that is applicable today is a twofold message GOODNEWS and a WARNING its not to derail its to put over the truth inline with the bible . i just saw the message thread and thought as it was a christian thread it would be about the message
in the bible .

and those who put over that message do have many enemies, and as Jesus said in luke 6;27 keep loving you enemies .

and i could add matthew 5;44 as making known the twofold message does lead to persecution


However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; matthew 5;44

[Joedjr]

Originally Posted by wil

He's not asking us to do it when it is easy or when it is safe, but let peace begin with me.

Hi Wil,
Agree with when it is not easy. But common sense would dictate that we should keep ourselves safe, maybe for no other reason than that we could be servants for another day.
Sometimes as I'm reading the gospels, it seems Jesus is trying to invoke response from a group that might be called "the stiff necked people". Maybe what He asks is not so much the exact words that are being used, but more to move the listener to action towards the idea He is trying to convey.
I'm not a proponent of the gospel of prosperity by a long shot, but He adds: "I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." John 10:10
Can I take this to mean that if we follow "the Way" although we might not gain any riches, the chances of a healthier and happy life are far better?

Joe