The myth of free will - Page 5

winner08 · 09-18-2008, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Arent you contradicting yourself, Darren?!!

Not at all. I am not contradicting myself. Good has giving man a brain and the power to use it and make decssions or choices.but they are not free choices. the choices we make are infuenced by outside forces. If something influences one's choices the it is not a free choice.

let's say you are a song writer and out of the blue you are inspiered to write a beautifull song. Something or someone an outside force inspiered your to write. You chose to start writting a song. YOU CHOSE but not freely. You chose because all of a sudden you had an idea an insperation a light blub moment. You just didn't choose out of the blue for no reason. Something CAUSED you to be inspiered God, a girlfriend,you mom,something. this is all i am saying something causes you to make the choice you made.

Is this really that hard to believe??

Darren

dailogue is the best · 09-19-2008, 08:24 PM

I am trying to understand you, Darren. I think there is something missing in your understanding of the meaning of free will, or that you haven’t managed yet in clarifying your argument in a clear way.

Anyway, this discussion which is taking place in this thread may make things clearer for us all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

LISTEN we make choices it is just not free. our choices are (caused) caused by something or someone.

YOU choose to write and debate me you choose why what (caused) you to write this? You disagree with me that is the (cause) that disagreement is what caused you to choose to debate. you choice was not free it was caused. This is not rocket science.

Here, Darren, I agree with you in the sense that we are put in situations where we have to react according to. This is true because we are in this world to be tested. We are in test that we have to respond to. That's the cause you talked about. Yet, this cause doesn’t determine my choice. My choice is freely-taken. And it is God who endowed me with this free will.

I will give you some examples wherein one's choices aren’t reactive:

1) A needy employee was offered a big sum of money as a bribe. He chose not to take the money, while he was really in need of it. So, here the cause didn’t determine the employee's choice

2) A man was seduced by a woman of great beauty. The man resisted his desires, and chose not to respond to her. So, here the cause didn’t determine the man's choice.

In both cases, we notice that the men's choices were taken out of determined will, and this will is given by God who test His true believers from those who aren’t, and to select those who strive for Him from those who don’t.

God of course has the before hand knowledge about what our choices would be for He is omniscient. The choices we make would be a proof against us or for us in the day of judgement. God would say:"Oh! My servant, I put you in that test. Why haven’t you reacted as I told you in the Scripture?" or vice versa:"Oh! My servant, you have succeeded in the test I put you in. You followed my teachings, and resisted yourself for My sake". It is like a teacher who knows His students’ level, but he has to test them so that the marks the students get would be a proof for them of their hard work or laziness.

"God's will will always be done" that's completely true. BUT, how do you interpret this statement is in my opinion what lacks insight. Do you want to say that people don’t choose for themselves, and it is God who chooses for them? No, it is God's will that we have shown the right and the wrong through prophets, and it is God's will that we have free will to choose the right or the wrong because we are in test in this world life.

If we aren’t free-willed, then what is the use of the Holy Scriptures wherein God orders us to do this and avoid that? Doesn’t God know that we aren’t free-willed???!!!!

Even though, this doesn’t mean that the world is left to man's will. NO. God always interferes, and it is His will which is always done: He is testing us. He protects the believers. He responds to our prayers. He educates the oppressors. He helps the oppressed...and many other divine rules the Scriptures full of take place in this earth, and show us how God is dominant.

Dream · 09-20-2008, 12:16 AM

Someone in this thread said my point of view implies 'God is evil', to which I say 'let God be true and every man a liar' and 'Go to the ant!' If an evil God seems implied by absolute predestiny, then one or both of us humans made some wrong assumptions but don't assume that its me. I accept absolute predestiny. I don't think that God's judgment and salvation is about my little life but about God's principles being shown in it, a 'vessel unto honor' or a 'vessel unto destruction'.

Quahom1 · 09-20-2008, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

Not at all. I am not contradicting myself. Good has giving man a brain and the power to use it and make decssions or choices.but they are not free choices. the choices we make are infuenced by outside forces. If something influences one's choices the it is not a free choice.

let's say you are a song writer and out of the blue you are inspiered to write a beautifull song. Something or someone an outside force inspiered your to write. You chose to start writting a song. YOU CHOSE but not freely. You chose because all of a sudden you had an idea an insperation a light blub moment. You just didn't choose out of the blue for no reason. Something CAUSED you to be inspiered God, a girlfriend,you mom,something. this is all i am saying something causes you to make the choice you made.

Is this really that hard to believe??

Darren

Fine. I lost a wife and wrote a song about the opposite of having a lost wife. Is this what you mean? (and yes I did write a song...ask Greymare, she has a copy of it).

sonoman · 09-20-2008, 12:56 AM

I accept my scripted fate too although I'd really like to trade mine in some days for a nice normal life. When I came down from my religious conversion experience after the 3rd day of this God-awful shock of seeing my world, the world, a fake! all illusion, from the galaxies right down to the tiniest quark, and it never stops being a Mystery to the human mind until we reach God. No matter where you look you won't find an end to the illusion but it is still an illusion because how else does prophesy work? How else could I explain how what came into my mind as revelation from God appearing in the mouths of tv comedians or on the dialogue of sit-coms or in the headlines of newpapers or out of the mouths of my family and friends, perfectly synchronized with only minutes sometimes separating the two events?

The normal structure of Reality" as we know it dissolves when this kind of stuff goes on continuously for three days. I have a distinct memory but cannot prove it of at the end of the third day I could predict what my wife would say before she said it, my kids, my friends I talked with that day. I "knew" the Script, what God's trying to tell everyone so that when you know the Script you know how each person's life revolves around resolving one of the Script's moral issues--that's what we're here for, educating our souls to advance to a higher level of empathy and compassion, these seeming to be requirements for entry into the World to Come. But guess what! Did the totally bewildered atheist-turned-believer want to stay in this enlightened state where he was one with the Script, had entered the Cosmic Library and knew more than he could possibly know?

Not on your life! I was SOOOOOooo happy on the 4th day to be coming down from this state of mind where everything I saw or touched, said or thought, immediately invoked a train of connections that linked whatever it was back to the teachings of God and Christ. I should mention here that I did have a physical illness, an unknown infection in my lymph system that raised my temperature slightly but produced heavy sweating coinciding with arrival of mental revelations. I looked like a malaria sufferer but I wasn't disabled that much, did more or less normal things except my mind was nowhere near normal. It takes some sort of catalyst to propel you into the state of mind where you can actually "see" the Script in operation. The movie, "The 13th Floor" does give an approximation of the mental shock that comes from realizing "reality", Creation, and one's life in it, follows a Script. Sometimes ignorance is truly bliss.

winner08 · 09-20-2008, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

I am trying to understand you, Darren. I think there is something missing in your understanding of the meaning of free will, or that you haven’t managed yet in clarifying your argument in a clear way.

Anyway, this discussion which is taking place in this thread may make things clearer for us all.

Here, Darren, I agree with you in the sense that we are put in situations where we have to react according to. This is true because we are in this world to be tested. We are in test that we have to respond to. That's the cause you talked about. Yet, this cause doesn’t determine my choice. My choice is freely-taken. And it is God who endowed me with this free will.

I will give you some examples wherein one's choices aren’t reactive:

1) A needy employee was offered a big sum of money as a bribe. He chose not to take the money, while he was really in need of it. So, here the cause didn’t determine the employee's choice

2) A man was seduced by a woman of great beauty. The man resisted his desires, and chose not to respond to her. So, here the cause didn’t determine the man's choice.

In both cases, we notice that the men's choices were taken out of determined will, and this will is given by God who test His true believers from those who aren’t, and to select those who strive for Him from those who don’t.

God of course has the before hand knowledge about what our choices would be for He is omniscient. The choices we make would be a proof against us or for us in the day of judgement. God would say:"Oh! My servant, I put you in that test. Why haven’t you reacted as I told you in the Scripture?" or vice versa:"Oh! My servant, you have succeeded in the test I put you in. You followed my teachings, and resisted yourself for My sake". It is like a teacher who knows His students’ level, but he has to test them so that the marks the students get would be a proof for them of their hard work or laziness.

"God's will will always be done" that's completely true. BUT, how do you interpret this statement is in my opinion what lacks insight. Do you want to say that people don’t choose for themselves, and it is God who chooses for them? No, it is God's will that we have shown the right and the wrong through prophets, and it is God's will that we have free will to choose the right or the wrong because we are in test in this world life.

If we aren’t free-willed, then what is the use of the Holy Scriptures wherein God orders us to do this and avoid that? Doesn’t God know that we aren’t free-willed???!!!!

Even though, this doesn’t mean that the world is left to man's will. NO. God always interferes, and it is His will which is always done: He is testing us. He protects the believers. He responds to our prayers. He educates the oppressors. He helps the oppressed...and many other divine rules the Scriptures full of take place in this earth, and show us how God is dominant.

Yes the man chose not to accept the money. I never said man had no will or could not make a choice. I said the choice is not free from cause. something caused that man not to choose the money.
How about his heart. God put it in his heart not to take the bribe. God influeneced his choice. God did not choose for him. He could have went the other way, but he had a good heart. Do you think that is possible?

as for the other questions the ansewers are the same God doest not choose for us God influeneces us He creates the circumstances and we choose. If God's will is always done then how could man have free will? Whatefver God's will is for you/us then there would be no way to choose different. If we had free will then no matter what God's will was for us we coluld do whatever we wanted. We could choose to go against His Will.

Darren

PS remember what I am saying We DO make choices and we Do have a will.
But our choices and will is not free from causes. something or someone causes us to chose the way we do. that is all it means No free will or free choice is just what it means if something or someone causes you to make the choices you make then it can not be free. That's it.

Darren

seattlegal · 09-20-2008, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonoman

I accept my scripted fate too although I'd really like to trade mine in some days for a nice normal life. When I came down from my religious conversion experience after the 3rd day of this God-awful shock of seeing my world, the world, a fake! all illusion, from the galaxies right down to the tiniest quark, and it never stops being a Mystery to the human mind until we reach God. No matter where you look you won't find an end to the illusion but it is still an illusion because how else does prophesy work? How else could I explain how what came into my mind as revelation from God appearing in the mouths of tv comedians or on the dialogue of sit-coms or in the headlines of newpapers or out of the mouths of my family and friends, perfectly synchronized with only minutes sometimes separating the two events?

The normal structure of Reality" as we know it dissolves when this kind of stuff goes on continuously for three days. I have a distinct memory but cannot prove it of at the end of the third day I could predict what my wife would say before she said it, my kids, my friends I talked with that day. I "knew" the Script, what God's trying to tell everyone so that when you know the Script you know how each person's life revolves around resolving one of the Script's moral issues--that's what we're here for, educating our souls to advance to a higher level of empathy and compassion, these seeming to be requirements for entry into the World to Come. But guess what! Did the totally bewildered atheist-turned-believer want to stay in this enlightened state where he was one with the Script, had entered the Cosmic Library and knew more than he could possibly know?

Not on your life! I was SOOOOOooo happy on the 4th day to be coming down from this state of mind where everything I saw or touched, said or thought, immediately invoked a train of connections that linked whatever it was back to the teachings of God and Christ. I should mention here that I did have a physical illness, an unknown infection in my lymph system that raised my temperature slightly but produced heavy sweating coinciding with arrival of mental revelations. I looked like a malaria sufferer but I wasn't disabled that much, did more or less normal things except my mind was nowhere near normal. It takes some sort of catalyst to propel you into the state of mind where you can actually "see" the Script in operation. The movie, "The 13th Floor" does give an approximation of the mental shock that comes from realizing "reality", Creation, and one's life in it, follows a Script. Sometimes ignorance is truly bliss.

Sonoman, how do you know that those events were not part of your life review? If you consider the consequences of observation in Young's two slit experiment, you can see where this might lead...

winner08 · 09-20-2008, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dream

Someone in this thread said my point of view implies 'God is evil', to which I say 'let God be true and every man a liar' and 'Go to the ant!' If an evil God seems implied by absolute predestiny, then one or both of us humans made some wrong assumptions but don't assume that its me. I accept absolute predestiny. I don't think that God's judgment and salvation is about my little life but about God's principles being shown in it, a 'vessel unto honor' or a 'vessel unto destruction'.

Dream God is not evil and whoever said this is committing blasphemy.

God IS NOT EVIL. GOD CREATED EVIL. let me prove it. if you or anyone here believes what the scriptures says then here is your proof.

1. Ecc,1:13 concord old testement. and experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby.
2. 11 sam,12:11 I will raise up EVIL against you out of your own home.
3. jer, 4:6 I will bring EVIL out from the north and great destruction.
4. Jer,18:11 Thus said the Lord behold I frame EVIL against you and devise a device against you.
5. Josh, 23:15 So shall the Lord bring upon you All EVIL things until He have destroyed you from off this good land.

Here is just a few scriptures that prove that God is the creator of evil but He Himself is NOT EVIL.

Darren

PS Dream most people refuse to believe in what the scripture says It right in front of their eyes. God created Evil He is not evil.

Another thought God create all thing Good and evil He created the devil and the devil is evil just a thought.

winner08 · 09-20-2008, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex P

If... We had free will, god would have to change his will...? Where on earth do you get your references from? That's like saying... I am going to use my free will to break the law (mans laws) So the police, and the courts and the prisons and the judges are going to have to change their will to suit me.... Nah don't work that way, You either fit in with the big picture (YHWH's will) Or you don't simple as that... His will changes for none... Yet we still have free will!

I get my references from scriptue.
John 19,10:11 Then said Pilate unto him, speak you not unto me, know you not that I have power to release you? Jeaus ansewred you have no power at all against me except it were given you from above.

No man can come to ME except the Father Draws Him (drags is the correct translation) not draws.
John 5:3 I of myself can not do anything.
john 14:10 believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me, The words I speak unto you I speak NOT OF MYSELF, but MY FATHER who dwells in me HE ddoes the work.
Phil 2:13 For it is God which works in BOTH to WILL and to DO of His good Pleasure.
eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him (God) who works all things after the counsel of His OWN WILL.
Eph 2:8 through grace you have been saved, through faith and that not of yourself it is the gift of God lest anyone should boast.
John 15:5 I am the vine you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him bears much fruit for without ME you can do NOTHING.

God does not make you do anything. You volunteer that is why we all will be judge by what we do.

God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.

Man has the ability to make choices he does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any causes. the cause of most of our choices is our mind and heart and of the abundance of our heart our mind thinks our tongue speaks and in our body we take physical action. This is how we make our own choices God creates the circumstances and we choose right or wrong good or evil we do the choosing.

Every choice we make had a cause. Something or someone caused the choices that we make.

You said God changes not. I agree. Yet we have free will. How does that work?

If God wills for you to be saved and you are not ready to be save you choose not now. Or God Wills you to go and work at a soup kitchen, but you have superbowl tickets can yo refuse to go to the soup kitchen?
If you hit the lotto and win a million dollars and it is God's will for you to give it to charity could you say no?

If God can not change and His will is always done then you would have to obey Him. If you did not do what God wanted then God would have to change His plan for you so that you could do what you wanted to do and not what He wanted to do.

So you said God's will never changes and you still have free will.
explaine that one. there is no way God's will never changes and ywet you have free will/choices. There is my scripture proving that there's no free will. That God's will is always done.

Just as Jesus taught and said I of MY OWN CAN NOT DO ANYTHING,EXCEPT THROUGH THE FATHER.

Darren

dailogue is the best · 09-20-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonoman

I accept my scripted fate too although I'd really like to trade mine in some days for a nice normal life. When I came down from my religious conversion experience after the 3rd day of this God-awful shock of seeing my world, the world, a fake! all illusion, from the galaxies right down to the tiniest quark, and it never stops being a Mystery to the human mind until we reach God. No matter where you look you won't find an end to the illusion but it is still an illusion because how else does prophesy work? How else could I explain how what came into my mind as revelation from God appearing in the mouths of tv comedians or on the dialogue of sit-coms or in the headlines of newpapers or out of the mouths of my family and friends, perfectly synchronized with only minutes sometimes separating the two events?

The normal structure of Reality" as we know it dissolves when this kind of stuff goes on continuously for three days. I have a distinct memory but cannot prove it of at the end of the third day I could predict what my wife would say before she said it, my kids, my friends I talked with that day. I "knew" the Script, what God's trying to tell everyone so that when you know the Script you know how each person's life revolves around resolving one of the Script's moral issues--that's what we're here for, educating our souls to advance to a higher level of empathy and compassion, these seeming to be requirements for entry into the World to Come. But guess what! Did the totally bewildered atheist-turned-believer want to stay in this enlightened state where he was one with the Script, had entered the Cosmic Library and knew more than he could possibly know?

Not on your life! I was SOOOOOooo happy on the 4th day to be coming down from this state of mind where everything I saw or touched, said or thought, immediately invoked a train of connections that linked whatever it was back to the teachings of God and Christ. I should mention here that I did have a physical illness, an unknown infection in my lymph system that raised my temperature slightly but produced heavy sweating coinciding with arrival of mental revelations. I looked like a malaria sufferer but I wasn't disabled that much, did more or less normal things except my mind was nowhere near normal. It takes some sort of catalyst to propel you into the state of mind where you can actually "see" the Script in operation. The movie, "The 13th Floor" does give an approximation of the mental shock that comes from realizing "reality", Creation, and one's life in it, follows a Script. Sometimes ignorance is truly bliss.

A very touching experience, sonoman...coming to God, and getting closer to Him

dailogue is the best · 09-20-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

Yes the man chose not to accept the money. I never said man had no will or could not make a choice. I said the choice is not free from cause. something caused that man not to choose the money.

So, Darren, we agree that man can choose, and make his will done. That's good. What you wants to say is that man has free will, but this will isnt free from cause. So, here. I think you should correct your statemet because it is your statement that made the misunderstanding between us. What you want to say is that man has free will, but he is influenced by certain causes.

In the examples I gave you: havent the men kept themselves away from the effect of the cause? They didnt let that cause affected their principles. So, not all the time causes affect us. What affects us is our inner and principles. What effects is us is how much are we educated to face the causes (tests) we face everyday.

example: you wrong me by saying bad words. that s a sufficient cause for me to do the same, but I dont. I control my anger. A true believer should keep himself/ herself from the effects of any cause. It isnt causes which control my behaviors, but rather my principles, and ethics.

Quahom1 · 09-20-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

So, Darren, we agree that man can choose, and make his will done. That's good. What you wants to say is that man has free will, but this will isnt free from cause. So, here. I think you should correct your statemet because it is your statement that made the misunderstanding between us. What you want to say is that man has free will, but he is influenced by certain causes.

In the examples I gave you: havent the men kept themselves away from the effect of the cause? They didnt let that cause affected their principles. So, not all the time causes affect us. What affects us is our inner and principles. What effects is us is how much are we educated to face the causes (tests) we face everyday.

example: you wrong me by saying bad words. that s a sufficient cause for me to do the same, but I dont. I control my anger. A true believer should keep himself/ herself from the effects of any cause. It isnt causes which control my behaviors, but rather my principles, and ethics.

Somehow, I doubt we are going to sway Darren into thinking that man has free will, because his will refuses to accept the evidence.

Not that Darren is wrong, just that the alternative hasn't been proven to his satisfaction. I'm not sure that it can be, either.

v/r

Q

on the other hand...Darren did not think anyone else read as much as he did, so maybe there is a comprimise somewhere...

dailogue is the best · 09-20-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

If God's will is always done then how could man have free will? Whatefver God's will is for you/us then there would be no way to choose different. If we had free will then no matter what God's will was for us we coluld do whatever we wanted. We could choose to go against His Will.
Darren

Look, Darren, God's will is always done doesnt mean that we arent free- willed. God really gives us the will to choose either to go with His Will or against it.

How?! Well, God says that He would help those who believe in Him. and God gives man the freedom to choose His way or not. Can you tell me, Darren, how many are those who believed in Abraham, Moses, Jesus when they came with the message in comparison with those who didn't? of course, the believers were very few.
Those belivers chose to believe because they were humble, and had a spiritually advanced inner, and because they resisted the suffering they faced (the cause that may lead them to disbelieve, but the didn't. Not the cause what decides our actions)

So, If God wanted he could make a lot of people believed in His prophets. But, He didnt want that. He wanted, and he wants, deliberate faith, not a compulsive one. So, that everyone will be rewarded according to his /her deeds and choice.

God's will is always done. If only one or two who believed with Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhamed, God would help them against the uncountable disbelievers. That what it means that God's will is always done. He isnt in need of people to make His well done.

He shows peolple the right and the wrong, he sent prophets and Holy Books, and He gives man the freedom to choose. Any cause that may effect my choice, it is me who let it effect me or not.

Those who follow God's teaching are following the right path and getting higher over any cause that may let them down, and those who follow his/her whims and desires does harm to himself/ herself only, and can easily get affected by any cause which may draw him/her out of God's way.

winner08 · 09-21-2008, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

So, Darren, we agree that man can choose, and make his will done. That's good. What you wants to say is that man has free will, but this will isnt free from cause. So, here. I think you should correct your statemet because it is your statement that made the misunderstanding between us. What you want to say is that man has free will, but he is influenced by certain causes.

In the examples I gave you: havent the men kept themselves away from the effect of the cause? They didnt let that cause affected their principles. So, not all the time causes affect us. What affects us is our inner and principles. What effects is us is how much are we educated to face the causes (tests) we face everyday.

example: you wrong me by saying bad words. that s a sufficient cause for me to do the same, but I dont. I control my anger. A true believer should keep himself/ herself from the effects of any cause. It isnt causes which control my behaviors, but rather my principles, and ethics.

We are almost there, except for one major thing. I said and mean to say Man has no free will or free choice. If you read the scriptures I provided you will see that God is in control of everything and therefore He causes every circumstances we find ourselves in. So no matter what we choose or will there is always a cause.

Question can you name a situation in where you make a choice and there is abslutely nothing that causes you to make that choice?

Listen I am not being a smart @#$. I personally can't think of any choices I could make that wouldn't have a cause. I am a firm believer in scripture. I am a firm believer in predestined. I also a firm believer that God is All soverign. Meanning He is independent of all things. He has control of all things. He knows the end from the beginning. Therefore we as punny humans can not make a choice or will anything that God has aready preordained..

I tell you the few scriptures that prove to me that man has no free will.

1. Jesus said I of myself can not do anything.
2. When Jesus was on the Mount. and praying to God in total distress and agony, crying out Father please let this cup pass from me, only if it is your will not mine be done.
3. The words that I speak are not of me but of my father.

These are just a few but I gave a few more in one of the above replys.

Yes God gave us a mind and a heart and we can process and make a choice for the good or bad. It just always has a cause why we choose the way we do.

Darren

PS By the way dailogue is the best, I am beginning to love these conversations we have.

Oh your example on the person being wronged and not doing the same back ,only proves one thing that yes he is in control of his anger not of his own doing but God gave him the conrol. If you believe that God is in control of everything then you have to give God the credit for the man to stay in control of his emotions. Just like when we ask God to give us patients or help us control our anger. Therefore God is the cause of his choice not to react negatively towards the other man who wronged him.

winner08 · 09-21-2008, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Somehow, I doubt we are going to sway Darren into thinking that man has free will, because his will refuses to accept the evidence.

Not that Darren is wrong, just that the alternative hasn't been proven to his satisfaction. I'm not sure that it can be, either.

v/r

Q

on the other hand...Darren did not think anyone else read as much as he did, so maybe there is a comprimise somewhere...

Sorry Quahome1 I believe there are many more people who read alot more then me.

No, I refused to believe in free will because it is not scriptual. I plainly gave many scriptures how man has no free will and you are the one who dosen't believe not because you don't want to, it is that God has not open your eyes to it, maby one day He will.

Just in case you missed it here are some scriptures on free will.

John 14:10-Do you not believe that I am in the Father ,and the Father in Me? The words I speak unto you I speak Not of Myself but the Father who dwells in me He does the work.(Jesus can't even speak His own words it is His Father's words that He spoke.

Phil 2:13- For it is God which workes in both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure.

Eph 1:11-In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTAINED according to the PURPOSE of Him (God) who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His OWN WILL.

Eph 2:8-For by the GRACE you have been SAVED. Through FAITH and that NOT OF YOURSELF. it is the GIFT of God lest anyone should boast.

John 15:5- I am the vine and you are the branches, He who abides in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.

Here Quahome1 are just a few known scriptures right out of the Bible. Theses are God's words. Now I can not give anymore proof than the word of God. So please dont tell me that I just refuse to believe. I do believe in the word of God Not man this is where all this free will came from MN not God

Quahome1 when God has dedtermined ahead of time to either happen or not to happen is not free to be otherwise. To say otherwise is a contradiction. God is not a God of contradiction or lies and confusion.

Darren