The myth of free will

[Mirko]

Originally Posted by winner08

1. I never said we were preprogrammed. God is responsible for our circumstances and we make the choices. The (cause) is whatever our circumstances are at that time.

OK I was reading your reply, but when you said it was idiotic that's when I draw the line. I know you didn't come out and say I;m an idiot but you insenuated. You either don't believe that God is forknowing, that He knows the END from the Beginning. That He IS SOVERIGEN, because if you did you would see that the two can not work together. We have over SIX BILLION humans on earth making billions of choices a min. Changing their minds every min of everyday. I will say it again, we make our choices were not robots or puppets. God gave us a mind so that we may use it. all I said is our choices are CAUSED by something or someone. That's it call it want you want, That's it. Every choice we make are CAUSED by something or someone. Now I am repeating myself.

Thanks,
Darren

well all things in existence are caused and cause
to say this does not really mean much
choice could not exist if there were no situations in existence that demanded or allowed a choice

you say humans have choice and humans have will
possibility of choice means self determination, conscious or unconscious, willing or unwilling, even if limited
self determination and willpower make for potential freedom
then free beings with will have the potential of having and using free will
this means free will, no matter how relative or scarce, is an innate possibility
it can and does exist

also there is a serious paradox in your reasoning, that involving the relation between the changable and unchangable
if you believe in a sovereing god then how can humans changing minds affect him, or his plan?
this would suggest that a gods sovereinty is dependant on the minds of humans and how often they change
meaning this is in fact not a sowereing god
if it is a sowereing god, then humans changing minds has no influence on it
if a thing or entity is said to be unchangable then, by both definition and common sence, it cannot be changed by things that are changable, and so its state is not dependant

[winner08]

[quote=Mirko;166027]well all things in existence are caused and cause
to say this does not really mean much
choice could not exist if there were no situations in existence that demanded or allowed a choice

you say humans have choice and humans have will
possibility of choice means self determination, conscious or unconscious, willing or unwilling, even if limited
self determination and willpower make for potential freedom
then free beings with will have the potential of having and using free will
this means free will, no matter how relative or scarce, is an innate possibility
it can and does exist

also there is a serious paradox in your reasoning, that involving the relation between the changable and unchangable
if you believe in a sovereing god then how can humans changing minds affect him, or his plan?
this would suggest that a gods sovereinty is dependant on the minds of humans and how often they change
meaning this is in fact not a sowereing god
if it is a sowereing god, then humans changing minds has no influence on it
if a thing or entity is said to be unchangable then, by both definition and common sence, it cannot be changed by things that are changable, and so its state is not dependant[/quo

Thank you everybody I have been shown the light and I am a believer

Darren

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by winner08

Who believes that there is no such thing as free will. That the rule of law effects everything and everyone. The rule of law when dealing with free will or free choice are as followed. Every choice we make is caused by something. Cause and effect. Plain and simple. The Lord cause's our situations and we choose. One can not,, not do God's Will. Whatever the situation is we choose according to God's Will. There can not be any other choice. If one believes that God is all powerful and knows the end from the beginning, that He is a soveregn God, then His will will always be done. Therefore every decssion we make has already been predetermind by God's Will As in the Our Father prayer. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Darren

Hi Darren

Suppose the result is unimportant. Suppose that the only important thing is the process of the continual interaction of universal laws. Results are important for us and our way of thinking. I am suggesting that objectively, all that is important is the process.

What is the difference between reacting from desire and acting from will? IMO we don't know since we are creatures of reaction so for us will is really reacting to differing desires just as it is with any other animal. Why does the cat strike at a particular moment? It is a reaction determined by the moment.

Christianity suggests that man is capable of more than animal reaction and that we are capable of consciousness and will. Only through consciousness and will could man become able to serve his greater purpose than his normal reactive animal life and connect heaven and earth both within himself and in the external world: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." This is a quality of action we are incapable of since it requires consciousness and will that exists for us as our potential to perform an action rather then just the normal creature of reaction that the majority of humanity has become accustomed to being.

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Hi Darren

Suppose the result is unimportant. Suppose that the only important thing is the process of the continual interaction of universal laws. Results are important for us and our way of thinking. I am suggesting that objectively, all that is important is the process.

What is the difference between reacting from desire and acting from will? IMO we don't know since we are creatures of reaction so for us will is really reacting to differing desires just as it is with any other animal. Why does the cat strike at a particular moment? It is a reaction determined by the moment.

Christianity suggests that man is capable of more than animal reaction and that we are capable of consciousness and will. Only through consciousness and will could man become able to serve his greater purpose than his normal reactive animal life and connect heaven and earth both within himself and in the external world: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." This is a quality of action we are incapable of since it requires consciousness and will that exists for us as our potential to perform an action rather then just the normal creature of reaction that the majority of humanity has become accustomed to being.

Excactly Nick you said a mouth full. Reacting from desire. (desire) is something that would CAUSE us to make a choice a certain way is it not so? therefore that choice is caused by the desire. (I Just said it backwards). It is a action CAUSED by a reaction. That is what i have been trying to say. I probable didn't explaine it the best way.

Darren

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by winner08

Excactly Nick you said a mouth full. Reacting from desire. (desire) is something that would CAUSE us to make a choice a certain way is it not so? therefore that choice is caused by the desire. (I Just said it backwards). It is a action CAUSED by a reaction. That is what i have been trying to say. I probable didn't explaine it the best way.

Darren

Simone Weil may very well have been one of the most extraordinary women of the twentieth century. She describes man as a creature of reaction and his potential for something greater in the most profound manner I've ever read. I think you may appreciate it:

“The sea is not less beautiful to our eye because we know that sometimes ships sink in it. On the contrary, it is more beautiful still. If the sea modified the movement of its waves to spare a boat, it would be a being possessing discernment and choice, and not this fluid that is perfectly obedient to all external pressures. It is this perfect obedience that is its beauty.”

“All the horrors that are produced in this world are like the folds imprinted on the waves by gravity. This is why they contain beauty. Sometimes a poem, like the Iliad, renders this beauty.”

“Man can never escape obedience to God. A creature cannot not obey. The only choice offered to man as an intelligent and free creature, is to desire obedience or not to desire it. If he does not desire it, he perpetually obeys nevertheless, as a thing subject to mechanical necessity. If he does desire obedience, he remains subject to mechanical necessity, but a new necessity is added on, a necessity constituted by the laws that are proper to supernatural things. Certain actions become impossible for him, while others happen through him, sometimes despite him.”

Excerpt from: Thoughts without order concerning the love of God, in an essay entitled L'amour de Dieu et le malheur (The Love of God and affliction). Simone Weil

[winner08]

I have been told in this thread that it the way I posted my title that threw people off.
The myth of free will.
someone said I should have wrote the myth of free UNCAUSED will.
OK maby my post title didn't clearly explained what I meant.
I'm not a teacher
But I stick by my statement free will is a myth you don't have a free will.
you do have to make your own choices.
You are RESPONSIBLE for the choices you make.
Free Will: not CAUSED by anything or anyone, any internal or external force or influences. Being totally free from CAUSES. It can not happen it is impossible for anybody to make a choice without A CAUSE impossible. every single time one makes a choice about anything there is a CAUSE behined that choice.
not have free will DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN NOT MAKE A CHOICE.
not having free will DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHOICES YOU MAKE.
If God's Will is ALWAYS DONE (ALWAYS), THEN HOW CAN YOUR WILL BE DONE. it is impossible. it can not happen. Your will can not be done if God's Will is ALWAYS done.
Just because God's will is ALWAYS done does not mean one does not make choices.
God creats the circumstances we find ourselves into. WE# however make our own choices.

Dailouge is the best said sometimes our will and choices are CAUSED by something or someone. Internal or external CAUSES.

No not sometimes All the time. I dare to say not one of you can tell me a choice you made that there was NO CAUSE. NO CASUSE WHATSOEVER> You can't do. there is ALWAYS A CAUSE.
There is ALWAYS A CAUSE behind EVER choice someone made during one's life time.

[winner08]

I think we all had enough of this thread. I have my belief and you have yours. No one is going to change no one's mind. So lets just say we agree to disagree.I believe it is time to move on. One has to admit that this thread has sparked some very good debate and isn't that's what it's all about sharing each others beliefs. Shareing information. Well if this is what this site does then I must say we shared o whole lot of info. and we had great discussions. I do think it is time to move on. I am sure we will do this again soon with another topic.
If I have been rude to anybody if I have offended anybody or hurt anybod's feelings I am sorry. Please forgive me I did not mean it. Once again I am sorry if I hurt anybody by my posts that wasn't what I wanted to do, sometimes it got heated and passion flies I did't mean anything by it. I have alot of respect for everyone here and I thank you for your inputs and time. I know this topic took alot of both.

Thanks everybody,

Darren

PS see ya on the flip side.

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Followed nicley by this.....



.....

Darren... Those who believe they know bettter than YHWH, create evil... YHWH doesn, hasn't, will NEVER(as you seem to like caps) create evil.... Examples of those which beleive to be better leaders/judges than him? Look in a history book many shall be found... Look in the bible many shall be found, they take the form and title of MAN..... It doesn't stop here however it started with an angel who with his free will decided he too knew what was best..... I think we know that one.

Do not take my word however, look to the bible.... I will offer you a couple sciptures to get you on your way..... 1 John 4:16.... We are told YHWH IS Love, there is no hate, no selfishness, no greed, no evil, not even a drop of it in love... Love is pure, love is clean..... Love... Is, good.

Paul the apostle what did he say of YHWH in 2 Cor 13:11 he calls him the god of.... Love and peace... Evil knows not these things, and Righteousness doesn't dabble in evil.

Ok then try to twist this scripture around and tell they don't say that God abslutely created evil.

Isa 45:7

KVJ> I Form the light and create darkness I make peace and I create evil I the Lord do ALL THESE THINGS.

KJVR- I form the light and create darkness I make peace and create EVIL I the Lord do ALL THESES THINGS.

LITV- Forming the light and creating darkness making peace and creating EVIL I Jehovah do all THESE THINGS

YLT Forming the light and preparing darkness making peace and PREPARING EVIL I am Jehovah DOING ALL THESE THINGS.

God can''t do evil He is love so why do you thin God created Satan.

You must not believe in Gods word, because you most certainly don't believe in scripture and scripture is the word of God. go ahead and show me ONE scripture that says that God did NOT create evil.
I showed you the exact word for word now you do the same.
Not that God is love because that does NOT say He did not create evil. We all know God is love.

with respect,
Darren

[winner08]

Let me just remind everybody just because God is not evil does not mean He did not create evil.
Just because God is love does not mean He created evil

There is not one scripture in the Bible that says God did not create evil. Just the oppisite The Bible Plainly say that God is the creator or evil.
Once again I nor the Bible said God WAS evil. Just the oppisite God IS love.

If you belive in What Scripture says then you believe God created evil If not you don't believe in what scripture says. it is really simple, is it not?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by winner08

Let me just remind everybody just because God is not evil does not mean He did not create evil.
Just because God is love does not mean He created evil

OK, so which is it? Did He, or didn't He?

[winner08]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

OK, so which is it? Did He, or didn't He?

my bad. Just because God is Love does not mean He did not create evil.
Why not? does not the bible say God is the creator of EVERYTHING?

[winner08]

Why is this so hard to believe? God said so in the Bible. look it up for youself Alex it is in the Bible Isa 45:7 check it out. God word does not contadict. so God is love and He DID createvil. Here's a thought. If God created all things He created Satan. do you think for one min. that it was not in Gods plan for the morning star to be what he is today Satan. God know the end from the beginning. God knows what will happen before it happens so this is God's plan. He created the tree of good and evil why? do you think for one min. that God did not know that eve would eat from the tree? Really come on. one can not suprise God. He already knows. God knew Eve would eat from the tree. God new that Cain would kill Able. God knew you would not believe in His word. Isa 45:7 . read it yourself.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by winner08

Ok then try to twist this scripture around and tell they don't say that God abslutely created evil.

go ahead and show me ONE scripture that says that God did NOT create evil.
I showed you the exact word for word now you do the same.

Well, to begin, you did *not* show the *exact* word for word, you showed a list of English translations...big difference. I recommend the Interlinear version for the Hebrew original:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/isa45.pdf

We've been here before in the past about Isaiah 45:7. So what you are covering is hardly profound or unique. Try this thread:

There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

or another:

The balance between good and evil

I particularly like this response:

That is the most cited verse supporting the contention of God creating “evil”. However...

Isaiah was juxtaposing opposites, light and darkness, crooked and straight and then “peace and evil? I give Isaiah a bit more credit than that. The two Hebrew words translated as “peace” and “evil” respectively, if given the meanings from their roots: “Shalowm” meaning “whole” and “ra’a” meaning ‘broken”, give us a completely different understanding of the verse.

It would read “I make whole and I break apart”.

Jesus says the same thing in John 12:47, “I have not come to divide the world, but to make the world whole”.

So...why is this so hard to believe? It is taken directly from the Hebrew, rather than the English translation, , that's why. Who are you gonna believe; the Hebrew scripture as it was written, or the English translation cobbled up by whoever with a political axe to grind?

Read it yourself.

[winner08]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Well, to begin, you did *not* show the *exact* word for word, you showed a list of English translations...big difference. I recommend the Interlinear version for the Hebrew original:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/isa45.pdf

We've been here before in the past about Isaiah 45:7. So what you are covering is hardly profound or unique. Try this thread:

There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

or another:

The balance between good and evil

I particularly like this response:



So...why is this so hard to believe? It is taken directly from the Hebrew, rather than the English translation, , that's why. Who are you gonna believe; the Hebrew scripture as it was written, or the English translation cobbled up by whoever with a political axe to grind?

Read it yourself.

Ok not word for word my bad. But It still dosen't change the fact I gave you 4 different translations of the same scripture, and they say the same thing and just because Isa 45:7 is the most quoted scripture on God createing evil dosen't negate the facts that He created evil. What are you saying If Gods word (scripture) is often quoted it's wrong, it's not so? If that is the case you are calling God a lier. God word is scripture and scripture is Gods word and God does not lie or change so it still a fact God created evil He says so. like I said I gave you 4 different translations the same scriptures.
1. KJV
2. KJVR
3. LITV
4. YLT
and they say the same thing useing different words for the word evil. it still means evil and God is the creator of evil, along with everything else.
Still you have not shown me ONE scripture that says God IS NOT the creator of evil. It is plain as day. All this about it's not in hebrew or this and that. still after all you said you still haven't shown me that scripture where God IS NOT the creator of evil. Listen I when translation scripture from one language to another something might get loss. This is why you check more then one reference to acertain scripture I gave 4 thats enough. Give me one.

Darren

[winner08]

Alex you made sure that I understood that YHWH dosen't hasn't and will never create evil. That God is love. You quote John and cor. Yes God is Love and has not one once of evil IN HIM. But John and cor. says nothing about God CREATING evil. If fact you have shown nothing that says God did not create evil. What is the big deal? I am sure you can find a scripture that tells me this. Like you told me look it up for yourself and then show me and I will believe the word of God. Simple.