The name of Jesus

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Starting a new thread on what can only be described as a controversial subject within Christianity. The name of Jesus…just how important is it to get this name that ranks among the most Holy in Christendom correct? What are the implications, particularly for literalist Christians?

Originally Posted by Prober

I don't know that I can give up Jesus' divinity. If that's what G-d wants me to do, I'm sure he'll let me know.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I'm very torn on this as well. I know great miracles have been brought to pass calling on the name of Jesus. Yet, I also know that is not His name. I don't know the subtleties of the language, but I think Yahshua is His Hebrew name, translated properly into English would be Joshua, not Jesus. His Aramiac name, if I've got the story straight, is more like Y'shua, or Yeshua. The Greek is Iesus, (which corresponds with Zeus). There wasn't even a "J" in the English alphabet until 1555 AD. King James, of KJV Bible fame, was born the following year. So are we even calling on the correct person when we call on the name of Jesus? Don't get me wrong, I think G-d does consider intent, especially when there is legitimate ignorance. Hence, why there are miracles done in the name of Jesus. But if one knows that is not His name, (and is no longer legitimately ignorant) does that name still carry the same weight?

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

it is the intent. the point is not the language, the mispelling, the mispronunciation; rather it is the intent. we worship and pray in spirit and the intent of that goes way beyond our shortcomings. it is also very personal, and that goes beyond social and cultural norms. what i mean is if you lived in a foreign country and everyone called their fathers, dad; but your son called you papa, not only is that correct because it is a personal name between the two of you, but its correct because he called you out of love and you love him back; therefore, you respond.

To which I have to respond, if intent is sufficient then the intent of billions of non-Christians must carry weight in approaching G-d as well. If G-d sees our intent, and intent is sufficient to cover our faults (at least the minor ones), then every person who ever lived who strove to be decent to neighbor and self and G-d as that person understands Him to be, should be found favorable. "Should" in this sense is not my personal implication, it is implicit in the argument of intent. One need not call on the name "Jesus" either, if the intent is proper one could as easily call on the name of "Ralph." (If Ralph happened to be one's messiah, anyway.)

And if one happens to be a literalist, then one had better stop calling on the false name of Jesus and start calling him by his birth given name...

[China Cat Sunflower]

My take on this is really very simple. Jesus says that "whatever you ask in my name I will do." If I ask for million dollars "in Jesus' name" will I get it? Uh, probably not. I think that "in Jesus' name" actually implies something more like "for the advancement of Jesus' purpose." So, paraphrasing: "Whatever you ask that advances my purpose, I will do." Now, holiness of Jesus' name, I think, is an entirely different thing. There his Name is the summation of his cosmic office. When that Name vibrates through the cosmos the work of the Logos is performed. No man can utter that name (it would be like trying to speak dolphin, or something) because if they could they could control the Force that goes with it. But we can call upon, or participate with the mysterious working of that Name through the process Jesus was describing in the text I quoted at the top. Well, I think so anyway.

Chris

[17th Angel]

I like to think of Jesus as an ice dancer, dressed in an all-white jumpsuit, and doing an interpretive dance of my life.

[Dondi]

All variations of spelling and inflections aside, it is not the name itself, but what is behind the name that counts.

I frequently hear people ending prayers "In Jesus' name", as if it were some magical incantation that would validate their prayer or give substance to actualizing their prayer, but I don't believe for a moment that this is what Jesus meant when He said that, "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."(John 14:14).

Psalm 138:2 says, "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

All those things Jesus performed in the will of the Father were backed by His Words, the things He taught.

"...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." - John 6:63

So when we proclaim the name of Jesus, we are proclaiming His Words, the Truth and Revelation of God come in the flesh. "...I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me."(John 14:6) The essence of the truth contained in the Word of God is what will lead people to God. When Gospel is preached in Jesus' name, it is preached in His authority of the truth revealed to man about who God is and what He wants of us. In fact, those the first questions that Paul asked upon his conversion: "Who art thou, Lord?", "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Those are questions we should all be asking.

[Virtual_Cliff]

When someone calls out "Open in the name of the law!", it's not the words "the law" that compel the fugitive to open the door. What the lawman means is "By the authority invested in me by the law, I command you to open the door".

Similarly we could say - if we had faith enough - "By the authority invested in me by Jesus, I command you to be healed". Whoah! Doesn't that sound great!

It has to be a Jesus that means a lot to you or it'll be a damp squib. Thinking of Jesus Johnson from the grocery store won't work (sorry Johnson). I think if you can't believe that Jesus is right up there on God's right hand you're wasting your time, just say "in the name of God".

[Prober]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Jesus says that "whatever you ask in my name I will do."
Chris

"...that the Father may be glorified in the Son".

and...

What's that thing about when the high priest uttered G-d's name once a year you could hear it for twenty miles or something?

[Prober]

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev 2:17

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

So, in heaven everyone has a new name.

Thought?

Will we all be creators? Speak Dolphin?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Prober

So, in heaven everyone has a new name.

Thought?

Will we all be creators? Speak Dolphin?

Hmmm...I am thinking "too many cooks spoils the broth." Or, "too many chiefs, not enough indians."

[wil]

Originally Posted by Prober

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev 2:17

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

So, in heaven everyone has a new name.

Thought?

Will we all be creators? Speak Dolphin?

Originally Posted by blaznfattyz

..we worship and pray in spirit and the intent of that goes way beyond our shortcomings..

Namaste 123 et al.

Great thread, great posts.

In his name. In Jesus name we pray, I've heard it said if you don't add it to a prayer it is like having bread without butter. But as mentioned here and elsewhere prayer works, and it doesn't appear to matter what denomination or religion....and even for atheists, agnostics who think postively and use affirmations...oh my...

So it is my understanding that when it was written, that collection, compendium we call the bible...names were of different import than today. Your name indicated who and what you were, your temperment, and what others thought about you. We see Abram and Sarai and many others getting name changes in their life. Jewish tradition doesn't name the child till after the parents ascertain the traits that child expresses. In the old testament we see them naming wells, mountains, towns...based on spiritual feelings that were occuring.

In Jesus name is thought to be in his nature, in his way. Walk like an Eqyptian...oops sorry. If we read it in Jesus' way we pray, or pray in Jesus' nature. Pray as if, pray with knowing, not beseeching...

my thoughts...

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

My take on this is really very simple. Jesus says that "whatever you ask in my name I will do." If I ask for million dollars "in Jesus' name" will I get it? Uh, probably not. I think that "in Jesus' name" actually implies something more like "for the advancement of Jesus' purpose." So, paraphrasing: "Whatever you ask that advances my purpose, I will do."

Conceptually I am inclined to agree, that whatever we ask of G-d that is right and proper and in line with His plans / outlook / designs or whatever will be granted. That "Go with the flow" and "tap into that universal source" stuff I see pointed to on occasion. The trouble is, how do we know when we are aimed in the correct direction? When G-d answers our prayers? If we are already pointed in the correct direction, what need to we have to even ask?

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Now, holiness of Jesus' name, I think, is an entirely different thing. There his Name is the summation of his cosmic office. When that Name vibrates through the cosmos the work of the Logos is performed. No man can utter that name (it would be like trying to speak dolphin, or something) because if they could they could control the Force that goes with it. But we can call upon, or participate with the mysterious working of that Name through the process Jesus was describing in the text I quoted at the top. Well, I think so anyway.

Well, OK, but Jesus is the son of G-d, not G-d. The name of G-d I believe might carry this "power" you allude to, but would the name of His son carry the same, or even significantly comparable, degree of power. *Especially* if that name is mispoken or misspelled. I don't claim to know much about incantation, but it seems to me correct pronunciation is crucial and key. To have Jesus' name so completely turned around as to be...well, a fiction, seems to me contradictory. The man we know as Jesus was given the name at birth of Yashua, by his mother, under instruction of the archangel Gabriel (if we are to believe the Gospel story). "Jesus" isn't even close in pronunciation, and that is my point. Jesus stems from the Greek Iesus, which has close ties to the Hero-god Zeus. If the name Jesus carries any weight of incantation power, it is distinctly pagan, *not Hebrew!*

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

Originally Posted by Dondi

All variations of spelling and inflections aside, it is not the name itself, but what is behind the name that counts.

I frequently hear people ending prayers "In Jesus' name", as if it were some magical incantation that would validate their prayer or give substance to actualizing their prayer, but I don't believe for a moment that this is what Jesus meant when He said that, "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."(John 14:14).

Psalm 138:2 says, "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

All those things Jesus performed in the will of the Father were backed by His Words, the things He taught.

"...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." - John 6:63

So when we proclaim the name of Jesus, we are proclaiming His Words, the Truth and Revelation of God come in the flesh. "...I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me."(John 14:6) The essence of the truth contained in the Word of God is what will lead people to God. When Gospel is preached in Jesus' name, it is preached in His authority of the truth revealed to man about who God is and what He wants of us. In fact, those the first questions that Paul asked upon his conversion: "Who art thou, Lord?", "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Those are questions we should all be asking.

With all due respect Dondi (and you should know by now I do respect you), I see a glaring contradiction: "(it is) what is behind the name that counts" (intent) versus "no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." If the man we know as Jesus is "the Way, the Truth and the Life," isn't it imperitive we get his name correct? Otherwise, if the name is not important, but rather the intent, then this can be paraphrased: "no man cometh unto the Father but by *the intent I represent*." I represent the Way, the Truth and the Life. I point the way so you may follow, but I am not that way in and of myself. (*I am the messenger, not the message*)

For everyone...I am not advocating any position in this...my mind and my heart are torn on the subject. I am merely looking at condensed versions of various sermons I have heard over the years...some of which point how powerful the name of Jesus is, and others pointing the inaccuracy of that name being applied to the person Christians hold as Messiah. When it is convenient, the issue of intent is raised...when at other times strict literalism is demanded (if it is in there, then it happened just exactly the way it says, crossed t's and dotted i's). I simply see a great deal of contradiction...and I am very confused on the subject.

[wil]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

...If we are already pointed in the correct direction, what need to we have to even ask?

Well, OK, but Jesus is the son of G-d, not G-d.

In my mind all of our desires are of the Father (de-sire) and you are right we need not ask, we simply need to know.

I and the Father are One...this isn't just a statement for our elder brother...but for us all...yes we are creators...

This is obvious on physical scale...what we conceive and believe we achieve...cell phones, travel to the moon, building a house, whatever...we are creators...

But the books open the door to the next level...and if we bestow our power to the name of Jesus or Krishna or whatever...it doesn't matter...it is our faith touching the hem if required...or standing on its own..but it is our knowing that we can be..

We do it all the time for little things....it is simply time for us to start working on larger creations...

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Cliff!

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

When someone calls out "Open in the name of the law!", it's not the words "the law" that compel the fugitive to open the door. What the lawman means is "By the authority invested in me by the law, I command you to open the door".

Similarly we could say - if we had faith enough - "By the authority invested in me by Jesus, I command you to be healed". Whoah! Doesn't that sound great!

It has to be a Jesus that means a lot to you or it'll be a damp squib. Thinking of Jesus Johnson from the grocery store won't work (sorry Johnson). I think if you can't believe that Jesus is right up there on God's right hand you're wasting your time, just say "in the name of God".

I suppose if one is called by another name often enough, one will eventually grow to answer to that new name. But when it comes to names of power, a subject with deep esoteric roots in both Judaism and Paganism (so by extension Christianity), it seems crucial to me to get the name of Messiah correct. If I understand Ralph is at the right hand of G-d, can miracles be wrought in the name of Ralph? The name "Jesus" is a linguistic extension of a Pagan God (Zeus), is the power to work miracles in that name derived from Pagan sources? Are Christians working miracles by and with anti-Christian power sources?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Prober!

Originally Posted by Prober

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev 2:17

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

Ah yes...but must one of necessity be Christian, and Christian only, to overcome? I have long thought not...

[Thomas]

If we read the Old Testament the Name of God has many forms, and the most common, JHWH, was revealed to Moses – its appearance in Scripture prior to this time is a redaction of the sacred scribes ... it was a name unknown to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Elhoim is plural, and non-personal;
El Shaddai has a disputed origin, one being 'God of the mountain';
Abraham referred to the God he followed by a Canaanite name, and dedicated shrines to the deity in that name;
The prefix El is not purely Hebraic, it means 'God' in Hebrew and it means the same in a number of other languages of the region.

Jehovah is a conflation of consonants of JHWH and the Hebrew vowel points of the word Adonai (Lord) which was used in its place, so has no proper Scriptural heritage, but is largely accepted these days.

And we have "Abba"

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Then, of course, the question of when you say God, do you mean the same thing as when I say God? Do we address the same Deity?

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There are strong esoteric teachings on the invocation of the Divine Name, common to every tradition, and in none is this aspect treated lightly. To say a name is to invoke the presence of that which is named ...

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And if we get into the Quantum of things ...

Just some thoughts.

Thomas




So we have a two-way converse, names that God reveals to man, and names by which man 'knows' God – the latter cannot equal the former, but if the name is acceptable to God, then the difference is effectively immaterial.

In the New Testament Jesus tells his nascent church that whatever they 'bind on earth shall be bound in heaven' (Matt 16:19) and this can refer to a Divine Name of human origin.

Thus Kyrios and Christos become Divine Names attached to the Father and the Son.

Then, traditionally, we have the litanies which form part of the liturgical celebrations...

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