The Nephilim Race - Page 5

Nogodnomasters · 07-31-2005, 12:01 AM

[QUOTE=Quahom1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

Rude arrogance does not become you either. Go to Jubilees (books included in the Bible before the reformation). I would present links but you can search it out for yourself. Junior members did with ease in the threads about Men of Old or Renown.

I will also caution you, once about the way you post. It is not very civil at times...

Q

First it was Genesis, then Deut. Now when you can't find it in either one, you decide it is not in the OT but Jubilees- which only you consider OT.

I think this is the quote "

"When Mastema, the leader of the spirits, came, he said: 'Lord creator, leave some of them before me; let them listen to me and do everything that I tell them, because if none of them is left for me I shall not be able to exercise the authority of my will among mankind. For they are meant for (the purposes of) destroying and misleading before my punishment because the evil of mankind is great.' Then he said that a tenth of them should be left before him, while he would make nine parts descend to the place of judgment." - Jubilees 10:8-9

Your quote:"According to the OT, the original Nephilim, are dead, never to rise again, not even on judgement day"

That is not even correct according to Jubilees. There is nothing about "Judgement Day" nor are all the original ones all dead according to this quote.

You are wrong on 3 accounts.
1) Not in OT
2) No judgement day mentioned
3) 1/10 are still alive- not all dead.

Don't quit your day job.

Quahom1 · 07-31-2005, 02:20 AM

[QUOTE=Nogodnomasters]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

First it was Genesis, then Deut. Now when you can't find it in either one, you decide it is not in the OT but Jubilees- which only you consider OT.

I think this is the quote "

"When Mastema, the leader of the spirits, came, he said: 'Lord creator, leave some of them before me; let them listen to me and do everything that I tell them, because if none of them is left for me I shall not be able to exercise the authority of my will among mankind. For they are meant for (the purposes of) destroying and misleading before my punishment because the evil of mankind is great.' Then he said that a tenth of them should be left before him, while he would make nine parts descend to the place of judgment." - Jubilees 10:8-9

Your quote:"According to the OT, the original Nephilim, are dead, never to rise again, not even on judgement day"

That is not even correct according to Jubilees. There is nothing about "Judgement Day" nor are all the original ones all dead according to this quote.

You are wrong on 3 accounts.
1) Not in OT
2) No judgement day mentioned
3) 1/10 are still alive- not all dead.

Don't quit your day job.

We'll start with Genesis:

Genesis 6:1-7
The phrase "sons of God" used in Genesis 6 is “bene elohim”, It is used three other times in current Bibles, and is used to describe "Sons of God". The three other times are in Job, wherein the "Sons of God" and Satan presented themselves before God, and when the morning stars came and sang together, and the "Sons of God shouted for joy".

Second, they are named and identified throughout the old testement, including Deuteronomy, Joshua, Exodus, Isaiah, Proverbs, Psalms.

Third, they are specifically identified as having no ressurection in Isaiah 26, Job 26, Psalm 88, Proverbs 2.

This establishes them right smack in the Old testement.

Now we'll move on to Jubilees:

R.H. Charles, the translator, a distinguished academic Biblical scholar, concluded that Jubilees was a version of the Pentateuch, written in Hebrew, parts of which later became incorporated into the earliest Greek version of the Jewish Bible, the Septuagint.

The Pentateuch, is the Old testement. Jubilees being considered version of the Pentateuch would appear to indicate that it was part of the Old testement. Never mind the fact that it was written a good 200 or more years BCE.

This establishes that more than my self considers Jubilees Old testement material.

Finally the death of the original Nephilim:

The original Nephilim were an pre-flood or an antediluvian race. Which means if they weren't on the Arc when the waters came, and they didn't have gills. they're all dead.

I said nothing about any Nephilim that came after the flood. I said the original Nephilim.

Hence my original statement is correct. The original Nephilim are all dead.

Q

Nogodnomasters · 08-01-2005, 12:36 AM

[QUOTE=Quahom1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

We'll start with Genesis:

Genesis 6:1-7
The phrase "sons of God" used in Genesis 6 is “bene elohim”, It is used three other times in current Bibles, and is used to describe "Sons of God". The three other times are in Job, wherein the "Sons of God" and Satan presented themselves before God, and when the morning stars came and sang together, and the "Sons of God shouted for joy".

Second, they are named and identified throughout the old testement, including Deuteronomy, Joshua, Exodus, Isaiah, Proverbs, Psalms.

Third, they are specifically identified as having no ressurection in Isaiah 26, Job 26, Psalm 88, Proverbs 2.

This establishes them right smack in the Old testement.

Now we'll move on to Jubilees:

R.H. Charles, the translator, a distinguished academic Biblical scholar, concluded that Jubilees was a version of the Pentateuch, written in Hebrew, parts of which later became incorporated into the earliest Greek version of the Jewish Bible, the Septuagint.

The Pentateuch, is the Old testement. Jubilees being considered version of the Pentateuch would appear to indicate that it was part of the Old testement. Never mind the fact that it was written a good 200 or more years BCE.

This establishes that more than my self considers Jubilees Old testement material.

Finally the death of the original Nephilim:

The original Nephilim were an pre-flood or an antediluvian race. Which means if they weren't on the Arc when the waters came, and they didn't have gills. they're all dead.

I said nothing about any Nephilim that came after the flood. I said the original Nephilim.

Hence my original statement is correct. The original Nephilim are all dead.

Q

It seems we are doing some major back peddleing. Since you can'y find Nephilim, you now opt for "sons of God" as meaning Nephilim with no justification.

I haven't seen anything that claims the original Nephilim are all dead. You just assumed that. Is. chapter 26 is about Israel's dominance over other nations, not Nephilim. The word is never used in chapter.

Jubilees may be OT material to you and one translator, but you explained it as being in Gen. and Deut. which makes no reference to Nephilim in regard to Judgement day.

Psalm 88 is for the sons of Korah. I see no reference to Nephilim or judgement day.

Proverbs 2 is instruction to be on guard against evil companions. No Nephilim, no judgement day.

Job 26 is Job's sarcastic reply to YHWH. Again no Nephilim, no Judgement day.

Admit, you're just winging it as you go along.

Is Enoch I OT too?

Quahom1 · 08-01-2005, 12:56 AM

[QUOTE=Nogodnomasters][QUOTE=Quahom1]

Quote:

It seems we are doing some major back peddleing. Since you can'y find Nephilim, you now opt for "sons of God" as meaning Nephilim with no justification.

I assure you, I don't back peddle. I stand by what I said. Quite the contrary. Nephilim is the word used to describe "Son's of God", and you better re-check your references.

Quote:

I haven't seen anything that claims the original Nephilim are all dead. You just assumed that. Is. chapter 26 is about Israel's dominance over other nations, not Nephilim. The word is never used in chapter.

I can't help your blindness.

Quote:

Jubilees may be OT material to you and one translator, but you explained it as being in Gen. and Deut. which makes no reference to Nephilim in regard to Judgement day.

Draft for Genesis...is the way it is described.

Quote:

Psalm 88 is for the sons of Korah. I see no reference to Nephilim or judgement day.

Research who the sons of Korah were...(I"m not going to do it for your convenience).

Quote:

Proverbs 2 is instruction to be on guard against evil companions. No Nephilim, no judgement day.

Sorry, read the above instructions.

Quote:

Job 26 is Job's sarcastic reply to YHWH. Again no Nephilim, no Judgement day.

Again, you shoot from the hip with no idea about scripture and how things tie in. And you ignore the paragraphs for the phrase/verse.

Quote:

Admit, you're just winging it as you go along.

Yep, just winging it as I go along. Just made all this stuff up. With such an imagination I could probably write a best seller, and Title it "The Bible". I bet it would stay on the best seller list for about hmmm, 2000 years or so, despite the "critics".

Quote:

Is Enoch OT too?

Well gee, was it written around the time of Christ? No? Before? Then I guess it is OT material.

And back peddling isn't in my nature. I like a good fight...

Q

Nogodnomasters · 08-01-2005, 01:29 AM

[QUOTE=Quahom1][QUOTE=Nogodnomasters]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I assure you, I don't back peddle. I stand by what I said. Quite the contrary. Nephilim is the word used to describe "Son's of God", and you better re-check your references.

I can't help your blindness.

Draft for Genesis...is the way it is described.

Research who the sons of Korah were...(I"m not going to do it for your convenience).

Sorry, read the above instructions.

Again, you shoot from the hip with no idea about scripture and how things tie in. And you ignore the paragraphs for the phrase/verse.

Yep, just winging it as I go along. Just made all this stuff up. With such an imagination I could probably write a best seller, and Title it "The Bible". I bet it would stay on the best seller list for about hmmm, 2000 years or so, despite the "critics".

Well gee, was it written around the time of Christ? No? Before? Then I guess it is OT material.

And back peddling isn't in my nature. I like a good fight...

Q

Please, if your not going to justify your statements, point out specific quotes, and simply nay-say. Save the response. If have added nothing new to prove you are in any way correct. If you can't help me in mt "blindness" is is apparent you can't see it either. I see no reference as in the OT that the "sons of god" are Nephilim.

Quahom1 · 08-01-2005, 01:51 AM

[QUOTE=Nogodnomasters][QUOTE=Quahom1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

Please, if your not going to justify your statements, point out specific quotes, and simply nay-say. Save the response. If have added nothing new to prove you are in any way correct. If you can't help me in mt "blindness" is is apparent you can't see it either. I see no reference as in the OT that the "sons of god" are Nephilim.

LOL, the irony is, you never will.

Take care NG.

Q

I, Brian · 08-01-2005, 11:26 AM

There's room for some good discussion on this subject, but not while we keep discussing messengers, rather than messages, thanks.

Quahom1 · 08-01-2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

There's room for some good discussion on this subject, but not while we keep discussing messengers, rather than messages, thanks.

sorry.

I, Brian · 08-01-2005, 11:32 AM

No worries, this is a great subject worth really focussing on the references of.

I, Brian · 08-06-2005, 09:32 PM

Back on discussion - after BB's link to Ezra at the Wikipedia, I went across and checked out the Nephilim entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

OneGirlRevolution · 08-08-2005, 04:17 AM

Hi.

I'm new here.. just joined today.

Back in June of 2003 I did a study on the Nephilim because they intrigued me... so I thought that I'd share. I know that some of these verses have already been referenced, but I'm leaving them in here anyway.

Here is my Biblical research on the Nephilim and their (possible) descendants, pre- and post-flood.... enjoy. (heh... even though nearly all of this is laid out in the previsouly mention Wikipedia link.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim... just sharing anyway)

(all verses quoted from the New International Version of the Bible)

NEPHILIM:

Genesis 6:2, 4 - "..the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, adn they married any of them they chose. .. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

ANAKIM:

Numbers 13:22 - "... Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the descendants of Anak.."
v. 28 - "But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there."
v. 33 - "We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
**Note that the Anakites are post-flood, which indicates that the "sons of God" most likely came to earth again to mate with the daughters of men after God had wiped out the original Nephilim. They seem to have been very large and feared.

Deuteronomy 2:10, 11 - "(The Emites used to live there - a people strong and numerous, and as tall as the Anakites. Like the Anakites, they too were considered Rephaites, but the Moabites called them Emites...)"
**Yes, I understand that this does not directly say that the Emites are Nephilim... but it does seem that way. If the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim, and the Emites were considered Rephaites just like the Anakites... it seems that the Emites could have been another clan of post-flood Nephilim.
Unless I'm completely wrong, which I'll always admit. Feel free to correct me, please.

Deuteronomy 9:1b, 2 - "... nations greater and stronger than you, with large cities that have walls up to the sky. The people are strong and tall - Anakites! You know about them and have heard it said: 'Who can stand up against the Anakites?'"
**It then goes on to say that the LORD will subdue them, letting the people drive them out and annihilate them quickly... so it would be logical to conclude that the Anakites across the Jordan there were completely destroyed.
Compare with Deuteronomy 1:28.

Joshua 11:21, 22 - "At that time Joshua went and destroyed the Anakites from the hill country... Joshua totally destroyed them and their towns. No Anakites were left in Israelite territory; only in Gaza, Gath and Ashdon did any survive."

Joshua 14:12 - "..the Anakites were there and their cities were large and fortified..."

Joshua 15:13, 14 - "... (Arba was the forefather of Anak.) From Hebron Caleb drove out three Anakites - Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai - descendants of Anak."
**Those 3 specific names also mentioned above in Num. 13:22.
Compare v. 14 with Judges 1:20.

"Arba, forefather of Anak" also mentioned in Joshua 21:11, and is then referenced as the "greatest man among the Anakites" in Joshua 14:15.

REPHAITES:

I'm also assuming here that Rapha (hence 'Rephaites') was a post-flood Nephilim, and that the 'descendants of the Rephaites' came about the same way as the Nephilim did back in Genesis, given the similar physical characteristics. Seems logical...

1 Chronicles 8:2 - "... and Rapha the fifth." (the fifth-born of Benjamin)

Deuteronomy 2:20, 21 - "(That too was considered a land of the Rephaites, who used to live there; but the Ammonites called them Zamzummites. They were a people strong and numerous, and as tall as the Anakites. The LORD destroyed them from before the Ammonites, who drove them out and settled in their place...)"
**Assuming the same of the Zamzummites as I did of the Emites.

Deuteronomy 3:11 - "(Only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaites. His bed was made of iron and was m ore than thirteen feet long and six feet wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)"
**Og also mentioned as one of the last of the Rephaites in Joshua 12:4; 13:12.

2 Samuel 15-22 - "Once again there was a battle between the Philistines and Isreal. David went down with his men to fight against the Philistines, and he became exhausted. And Ishbi-Benob, one of the descendants of Rapha, whose bronze spearhead weighed three hundred shekels and who was armed with a new sword, said he would kill David. But Abishai son of Zeruiah came to David's rescue; he struck the Philistine down and killed him. Then David's men swore to him, saying, 'Never again will you go out with us to battle, so that the lamp of Israel will not be extinguished.'
In the course of time, there was another battle with the Philistines, at Gob. At that time Sibbecai the Hushathite killed Saph, one of the descendants of Rapha.
In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.
In still another battle, which took place at Gath, there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot - twenty-four in all. He also was descended from Rapha. When he taunted Israel, Jonathan son of Shimeah, David's brother, killed him.
These four were descendants of Rapha in Gath, and they fell at the hands of David and his men."
**Compare this telling of the death of "Goliath the Gittite" with the following:

1 Chronicles 20:5 - "In another battle with the Philistines, Elhanan son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod."
v. 20:4 also says that Sibbecai the Hushathite killed Sippai (instead of "Saph" as the verses in 2 Samuel state).

[Either way, Elhanan and Sibbecai each killed a descendant of Rapha.]

Genesis 14:5 - "...Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim and the Horites in the hill country of Seir..."
**Perhaps "Zuzites" can also be interpreted as "Zamzummites"? Not sure - just throwing the possibility out there.

VALLEY OF REPHAIM:

2 Samuel 5:18, 22; 23:13
1 Chronicles 11:15; 14:9
Isaiah 17:5

Alrighty..... that's all I have.. Don't know if it was helpful or not. Just thought I'd lay it out there on the table for everyone to read, if they wanted.

Thanks!

OneGirlRevolution · 08-08-2005, 05:49 AM

To follow up my previous reply...

Here are some interesting footnotes I found in a Bible of mine.
They provide interesting points to think on and/or discuss.

Fotnotes from the NIV Study Bible, by the Zondervan Corporation, 1995.

Gen 6:2
sons of God saw... daughters of men.. and they married. See v. 4. The phrase "sons of God" here has been interpreted to refer either to angels or to human beings. In such phrases as Job 1:6; 2:1 it refers to angels, and perhaps also in Ps. 29:1 (where it is translated "mighty ones"). Some interpreters also appeal to Jude 6-7 (as well as to Jewish literature) in referring the phrase here to angels.
Others, however, maintain that intermarriage and cohabitation between angels and human beings, though commonly mentioned in ancient mythologies, are surely excluded by the very nature of teh created order (ch.1; Mk 12:25). Elsewhere, expressions equivalent to "sons of God" often refer to human beings, though in contexts quite different from teh present one (see Dt 14:1; 32:5; Ps 73:15; Isa 43:6; Hos 1:10; 11:1; Lk 3:38; 1 Jn 3:1-2, 10). "Sons of God" (vv. 2,4) possibly refers to godly men, and "daughters of men" to sinful women (significantly, they are not called "daughters of God"), probably from the wicked line of Cain. If so, the context suggests that vv. 1-2 describe the intermarriage of the Sethites ("sons of God") of ch. 5 with the Cainites ("daughters of men") of ch. 4, indicating a breakdown in the separation of the two groups.
Another plausible suggestion is that the "sons of God" refers to royal figures (kings were closely associated with gods in the ancient Near East) who proudly perpetuated and aggravated the corrupt lifestyle of Lamech son of Cain (virtually a royal figure) and established for themselves royal harems.

Gen 6:4
Nephilim. People of great size and strength (see Nu 13:31-33). Hebrew word means "fallen ones." In men's eyes they were "the heroes of old, men of renown," but in God's eyes they were sinners ("fallen ones") ripe for judgement.

Nu 13:22
descendants of Anak. Three notable Anak descendants are mentioned as living in Hebron. The Anakites were men of great stature; their physical size brought fear to the people (see vv. 32-33). In a later day of faith, Caleb was to drive them from their city (Jos 15:14; Jud 1:10).

Dt 1:28
Anakites. Eariler inhabitants of Canaan, described as giants (see 2:10,21; 9:2; Nu 13:32)

Dt 2:10
Emites. Possibly meaning "terrors."

Dt 2:11
Rephaites. Ancient people of large stature.

1 Ch 20:4
Rephaites. Ancient people known for their large size (see Ge 14:5; Dt 2:11; see also note on 2 Sam 21:16, below).

Dt 2:20
Zamzummites. Possibly meaning "murmurers," and perhaps to be identified with the Zuzites of Ge 14:5.

Jos 11:21
Anakites. Had been reported by the 12 spies to be a people "of great size" (Nu 13:32), whom the Israelites had feared so much that they had refused to undertake the conquest. They were related to the Nephilim (see note on Gen 6:4) and were named after their forefather, Anak.

2 Sam 21:16
Rapha. In calling the four formidable enemy warriors referred to in this series "descendants of Rapha" (v. 22), the writer most likely identifies them as giants, as suggested by Dt 2:10-11, 20-21. In that case, they may have been related to the Anakites, though the Anakites (but not Rephaites) figure significantly in teh accounts of the conquest (Nu 13:22,28,33; Dt 1:28; 9:2; Jos 14:12,15; Jud 1:20).

2 Sam 21:19
Elhanan ... killed Goliath. Since it is clear from 1 Sam 17 that David killed Goliath, it is possible that an early copyist misread the Hebrew for "Lahmi the brother of" (see 1 Ch 20:5) as "the Bethlehemite" (in Hebrew the word for "killed" stands first in the clause).

Ge 14:6
Horites. Formerly thought to be cave dwellers (the Hebrew word hor means "cave"), they are now known to have been the Hurrians, a non-Semetic people widely dispersed throughout the ancient Neat East.

I think those footnotes make a fine companion to the verses I posted above.
Enjoy...

OneGirlRevolution · 08-09-2005, 03:04 AM

I just thought of something....

Gen 6:4 describes the Nephilim as being "heroes of old" and "men of renown"..

Now, a "hero" -- 1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods. 2. A person noted for feats of courage of nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life. etc., etc.
And "renown" -- 1. The quality of being widely honored and acclaimed; fame.

I find it extremely interesting that Gen 6:4 seems to be the only reference of them being heroes and men of renown (implying honor and goodness).

Every other reference to the race of giants - be they Anakim, Rephaim, or what have you - seem to imply great fear and an evil of sorts. There seems to be no respect or excitement that a "hero" would bring. Just fear.

Just a curious thought.

I, Brian · 08-09-2005, 06:56 PM

Thanks for the references, OneGirlRevolution, and welcome to CR.

tropheus74 · 08-11-2005, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I don't think Nimrod was one of the Nephilim. I could stand to be corrected, but the stories I am familiar with make Nimrod's daddy out to be a fellow named Cush, the son of Ham, the son of Noah (as I recall). I seem to recall mention of this in Genesis. Nimrod's mother, and later wife according to some, was a woman named Semiramis. It is said that through these 3 specific people that idolatry was introduced to humanity. So yes, the connection with Babel according to both the Bible and external sources. No to the connection concerning Nimrod and the Nephilim, at least by my understanding of those same sources.

In addition, Nimrod was known as "The great hunter". For those anthropologists out there, this might tie him to a more ancient hunter gatherer tradition that survived into what was then "modern" memory.

As far as his descent: "The sons of Cush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and sabteca...Cush became the father of Nimrod; he was the first on earth to be a mighty man. He was a mighty hunter before the lord; therefore it is said "like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the Lord." The beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech and accad, all of them in the land of Shinar. From that land he went into Assyria, and built Nineveh, Rehoboath-Ir, Calah , and Resen between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city." (Genesis 10:7--12)

What is interesting is that Cush "became the father of Nimrod", separate from the other 5. Does this mean he was an illegitamite and/or adoptive son? This may be where the reference to the Nephalim comes from. It seems he went on to produce most of the Villains of the bible (Babel, Assyria, and most of the other eastern warring nations of the Tigris/Euphrates).

I find it interesting that while Nimrod was mentioned to be a hunter, he is associated with the "enemy" cultures. This, along with the story of Cain, who made an offering of animal flesh before the lord, the rejection of which drove him to sin (Genesis 4:1--10), lend a fairly negative association with the practice of hunting. Another Indo-European religion, that of Krishna, based on the Bagvad Gita (pardon the spelling), also discourages hunting, to the point of putting a ban on the eating of meat. These clues really tickle me.

Compare this with the context; the most ancient cities, archeologically speaking, appear in the middle east, where gathering and herding became the driving force in cultural evolution.

Another important reference to Nimrod occurs in the Epic of Gilgamesh; Gilgamesh's buddy Enkidu was described as a great hunter. Together they fought Humbaba of the ceder forest. Could Enkidu be Nimrod with a different mask? I don't like to make loose associations, but it shows that the Sumer/Assyrian/Babylonian cultures would more readily celebrate hunting.

Let's bring this full circle, back to the Nephalim; can anyone reference the text and/or books so that I can do some of this research? I am extremely curious where this mythology is placed, given that the bible dedicates only a few lines to them in pre-flood genesis, then hints at them later (Nimrod, Goliath, etc.)

Just my 2 cents on goliath: I don't think he could be called a Nephalim; perhaps descended from them, but he was clearly a Philistine hero. The philistines were an Aegean people, referenced as "the Sea Peoples" in egyptian stories; They settled the coast of Palestine (whom derives its name from them) around 1200 BC; the late bronze/early iron age. If any of Nimrods descendants founded the greek world, then it is possible that Goliath was descended from the Nephalim. Otherwise, he can be viewed as a kind of Hercules/Gilgamesh type charecter.

By the way, I love to have references when something is posited.