the origin of life and the universe

[Avi]

I don't believe in accidental evolution.

Evolution is not accidental. It has an underlying random component with a vector in the direction of natural selection.

Out of curiousity, are there any evolutionary biologists in this forum ??

[nativeastral]

not me but if your a mathematician explain yourself in laymans terms

[shawn]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Shawn,

Thank you for joining our discussion on the origin of life and the universe. These are fascinating questions that make us more human merely by our pondering of them.

You mention different stories of cosmogenesis from different cultures. I love to find points where different cultures agree in their theories.

You mention how the Jews got the Old Testament from the Sumerians. I think the source of the original story goes back much farther than that.

The sumerian thing is just one of the first links in a long chain which goes back....way back.
They keep digging up remains which carbon test at really old dates which shoots their timelines down in flames.
Personally I think that humanity has been here a really long time.
I am partial to the idea of catastrophism and think that people have risen to technological peaks of advancement in times past, but some form of disaster threw us back to the stone age a few times, from which we laboriously climb back out of....slowly.

[_Z_]

nick tp

i was using that to say how life is non specific, in other words, there is an aliveness which is universal.

i think our consciousness is largely dependant on having a brain [although not entirely], however awareness is a universal like life and belongs with the eternal.

shawn
interesting! we druids call what you describe the ‘awen’, it is this that i am attempting to describe ~ as it becomes life and awareness etc.

i think evolution is not just to do with life but also that the entire universe evolves. to me this clearly means there is a blueprint and an intelligence, although i do not think it is ever fixed as one thing, i see it as more fluid, so the blueprint is rewritten over and over again.

[Avi]

Hi Nativeastral,

Originally Posted by nativeastral

not me but if your a mathematician explain yourself in laymans terms

I am not a mathematician, I am an engineer, but I would be glad to summarize my ideas about evolution, and I will give you a couple of references if you want to look further at them.

In her book, “Evolution and Christian Faith” (Island Press, 2006), Joan Roughgarden discusses ideas of evolution, ID and other current issues in this debate.

I will quote from her book:

“ I suggest we begin by disputing the secular philosophy of our day which glorifies the dog-eat-dog survival of the fittest, as excusable and even meritorious because such conduct supposedly expresses basic human nature. This is the philosophy of “social Darwinism”, which I think amounts to the application of a mistaken understanding of evolution to human social behavior. We shouldn’t allow opposition to social Darwinism and emphasizing cooperation in its place to be dismissed as romantic, wishy-washy thinking. Philosophers refute social Darwinism on the grounds that “science says what is, not what ought to be”. Therefore even if evolution were a nasty business, it shouldn’t matter for human ethics. That’s nice, but this dismissal doesn’t end the matter. I’m troubled by how the science itself is continually misrepresented. Nature is not simply dog-eat-dog survival of the fittest, and therefore the possibility of transferring this view of nature from animals to humans is incorrect to begin with. So what can be done ? We need to understand and to publicize better the biology of animals with complex social systems in which organisms do not live as simple individuals but as members of social groups".

Kevin Padian is another scientist who has done breakthrough work in this area.

Next – random mutation

[Avi]

Oops, I realized I should give a little interpretation of Roughgarden's comments. She is an advocate for breaking the antagonism between evolutionists and religious believers. She is a gifted evolutionary biologist and explains evolution in laymans, non-threatening terms. She is a kind and very unique person.

[Nick the Pilot]

Shawn,

I agree that we have been here a long time, much longer than scientists postulate. There have been many Floods and catastrophes, not just the one in the Bible. There has been a whole series of advanced civilizations that have come and gone. I also agree that we have had to pull ourselves out of a Stone Age many times. And, the story of Genesis has been handed down through all of these civilizations. Unfortunately, the story has been changed as it has been handed down through seemingly countless centuries.

Z,

You said,

"i think our consciousness is largely dependant on having a brain"

--> This begs the question: What happens to our consciousness when we die, and no longer have a physical brain? And what about out-of-body experiences that scientists refuse to acknowledge?

[nativeastral]

Originally Posted by _Z_

devotion to what? i would go with the knowledgeable route. ...with universal respect ~ as all things including gods make utility of the same universals.

devotion to a point of reference beyond the ego or little self?
tell us more about the concept awen, being a celt l am interested!

[nativeastral]

Originally Posted by Avi1223

Oops, I realized I should give a little interpretation of Roughgarden's comments. She is an advocate for breaking the antagonism between evolutionists and religious believers. She is a gifted evolutionary biologist and explains evolution in laymans, non-threatening terms. She is a kind and very unique person.

hi yes l think biology in its now many strands is refuting the reductionism apparently implicit in the rest of science until recently; are you referring to absolute/inherent ethics/morals rather than it being an evolutionary progression? like platonism's Forms?
Also l think l am with you as regards mathematics reflecting some sort of extraordinary truths coinciding the All; it certainly been used as an analogy for our link with g#d/ulltimate reality.

would be interested if Hegelian Geist- of the world/nature/divine is becoming...bit like awen? Apparently he's poopooed as a romantic idealist who talks nonsense but what little lve read l resonate with..any thoughts?

[shawn]

Originally Posted by nativeastral

devotion to a point of reference beyond the ego or little self?
tell us more about the concept awen, being a celt l am interested!

Being somewhat celtic myself (of the Cornish variety) I would like to hear about it as well.

[_Z_]

tell us more about the concept awen, being a celt l am interested!

well, most of my posts are about it in one way or another. i am only part celt but the gundlestup cauldron [forgot spelling lols] was found in denmark so who knows what celtic is eh!
the awen has a very ancient roots, going right back to the 'cave cathedral culture' if i got it right, my view of it is contemporary though. best ask at obod [order of bards ovates and druids] forums if you want a more celtic answer.

to sum it up, i think the druids saw space as something from which all things arise, the stars, the sun the moon then earth. so they saw a kind of unmanifest version of everything that is manifest, then between the two is the language of magic, a collection of archetypes to which their astrology, gods and we connect.

it is a both a universal ‘source’ [keyword] and 'the way' of things, everything that we are, and what gods are, would be manifest of or making utility of this pool of life.

really there is only one thing; the awen, even infinity is only a partial explanation ~ as is anything else we may think of.

[shawn]

Interesting Z.
Looking at old civilizations, they invested a lot of energy into charting the cosmos.
All the old monuments were not just to look awe inspiring, but were markers of various points in the sky.
These days we have observatories of many kinds, but they are kind of removed by a few steps from the average person who pays such things virtually no heed at all.
Perhaps this is why we are all in step with artificial time (as opposed to natural time) and have lost our feelings of intimacy and connection with the earth and the cosmos.
We spend too much time gazing into our electronic navels or being mesmerized by the flames and the shadows on the cave wall.

[_Z_]

Looking at old civilizations, they invested a lot of energy into charting the cosmos.
All the old monuments were not just to look awe inspiring, but were markers of various points in the sky.

exactly, there is a connectivity as if reality is a load of points and each has a field, yet all fields are actually one thing [the awen]. the way these points connect has peculiar properties according to their patterns, one pattern correlates with e.g. taurus the bull, which in turn matches certain universal characteristics [archetypes]. so you connect to tour region of the cosmos, your position to that and all other archetypes denotes a relationship, this collectively charts the set of relationships and the transpire over time.

science would argue that astrology is wrong because the earth is not the centre of the solar system, yet the sun is not the centre of the universe, in fact there is no centre specifically, everywhere is the centre of the singularity. hence your position upon earth is central! your relationship to the cosmos is universal.

there is another set of many such correlating patterns of reality, the ancient iberians [ancestors of britons], built circles and stones in alignment with the points between mountains. the very ancient egyptians done the same in the first pharaoh’s tomb, they connected the door of the tomb to where two mountains met on the horizon. this denoted the path of the soul into elysium.

so there are all manner of ‘connectives’ all via a single medium ~ the awen.

[shawn]

The medicine wheel in North American tradition is like that.
It is a clear marker of celestial references and is used also to bring the diverse groups together at key times.
Kind of like an Indian stonehenge.

[_Z_]

yes i read about that, its very similar. circle dancing too, the pre druidic britons who built the stone circles were into that so i believe. both are representations of the cyclic nature of things we see around us. the indians also had a 'great spirit' notion which maybe similar to the awen.