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Old 03-23-2009, 11:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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the origin of life and the universe

since there is a wide spectrum of beliefs here, religious and secular, would anyone be interested in sharing their ideas, comprehension and understanding on the origin of life with regard to the beliefs and myths of your particular religion and how or if it is reconciled with modern science's accepted theory of natural selection ?

apparently children get confused between the origin of life and the origin of the universe [scottish education document]. maybe l am too since l am starting to believe nothing is inanimate matter?!

l'm not really up on the creationist issue so an update on that wouldn't go amiss either.

l would be particularly interested in creation myths and the underlying meanings they convey. do they/can they accord with modern quantum physics [as abstruse as it is]?

ie can the narratives 'match' up coherently so that the past present and future conveys an undeniable truth, a perennial wisdom still singing a song that the young steeped in scientism nowadays can still relate?
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Old 03-24-2009, 01:44 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

nativeastral,

Here is a thread on the Theosophical version of the origin of the universe

Theosophy's Origin of the Universe

One important distinction is that, according to Theosophy, God emanted from the Darkness, rather than the other way around, as in the Christian version.
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Old 03-24-2009, 03:00 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

Buddhism is all about cause and effect.

Science has never been an enemy to Buddhism.
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Old 03-24-2009, 11:17 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

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Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot View Post
nativeastral,

Here is a thread on the Theosophical version of the origin of the universe

Theosophy's Origin of the Universe

One important distinction is that, according to Theosophy, God emanted from the Darkness, rather than the other way around, as in the Christian version.
immediately l thought of black holes/dark matter anti, no, ante matter [the pre matter in your post]. Though in genesis it was also black to begin with until g#d moved over the [ocean] and separated light/dark.
thanks for link.
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Old 03-24-2009, 11:21 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

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Buddhism is all about cause and effect.

Science has never been an enemy to Buddhism.
do they accept hindu origin myths or have they 'created' their own narratives [perhaps from other ancient sources] or did Buddha not speak of origins? he must have had to define nirvana [end] in contrast to beginnings?
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

oops my mistake, no teleological end nor beginning but eternal [?] cylces, so no time nor place [in space?]. need to do more reading on buddhism; will check the excellent past threads on this forum.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:23 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

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Originally Posted by nativeastral View Post
apparently children get confused between the origin of life and the origin of the universe [scottish education document]. maybe l am too since l am starting to believe nothing is inanimate matter?!
Not to worry, the sky won't crash down on your head for not understanding. Abiogenesis is the study of the origins of life, and is quite a separate study from that of the origins of the universe. It is also quite a different study than evolution.

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l would be particularly interested in creation myths and the underlying meanings they convey. do they/can they accord with modern quantum physics [as abstruse as it is]?
No. Quantum physics is such a new way of looking at things, and creation myths are centuries if not millenia old. Heck, most sciences still haven't incorporated quantum physics, and frankly its a bit too early to do so anyway. The concept has yet to fully fledge. Who knows? Ten years from now it may be shown to be a wild goose chase, barking up the wrong tree. We won't know until we better explore the avenues it presents.

I will throw out one wild card to consider...Mandelbrot sets.

As for creation myths, those I have heard from Native American traditions have nothing to do with quantum physics. They are ways of explaining why the tribe relates to certain things/animals/plants/situations and circumstances in traditional ways.
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:15 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

Nativeastral,

Thanks for taking a look at the idea of pre-matter. No, I see pre-matter as quite different than dark matter which has been discovered in the universe. (For those readers out there who do not know, dark matter is matter in the universe that has not been discovered, but is postulated to exist, in order to explain gravitational behavior of galaxies.) Pre-matter is the basic ‘substance’ from which all physical matter is constructed. (According to the theory, if dark matter exists, it is composed of pre-matter, just like all other physical matter is.)

Here are two more things about pre-matter. First of all, it is called by the word Mulaprakriti, which I believe is a Sanskrit word. Also, the Blessed Virgin Mary is merely a symbol of pre-matter. Mary symbolizes pre-matter, and the baby Jesus symbolizes our physical universe which has been produced from pre-matter. (This, it is said, is the real meaning of the symbology of Mary and baby Jesus.)

I am delighted that you have mentioned darkness, God, and light, as mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis. In my belief system, it is said that God emanated from the darkness, while Genesis says the opposite happened, that darkness ‘emanated’ from God. It is my belief system’s contention that Genesis originally said that God emanated from darkness, but the order was later reversed for political reasons by pre-Biblical writers.

It is my belief system's contention that there is a God, but God is not almighty, and that God emanated from the Darkness.

One more thing. Genesis says in the third sentence that spirit moved across the waters. These waters are the very pre-matter (Mary) that we have been talking about. It was the interaction of spirit (light) and pre-matter (water) that created our physical universe (Jesus, God). This makes more sense than the disjointed and intentionally altered story in Genesis.
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:27 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

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Originally Posted by nativeastral View Post
oops my mistake, no teleological end nor beginning but eternal [?] cylces, so no time nor place [in space?]. need to do more reading on buddhism; will check the excellent past threads on this forum.
Buddha said that conjecture on origins of the world would cause madness and vexation to whomever conjectured about it.
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:33 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

"Buddha said that conjecture on origins of the world would cause madness and vexation to whomever conjectured about it."

1. I do not believe Buddha would say such a thing.

2. Such statements cause me to call myself a non-Buddhist. I believe in a soul, today's Buddhists are not allowed to believe in a soul, and this makes me perfectly content to not call myself a Buddhist. (Buddha said there is no such thing as an eternal soul, which fits in my belief system quite nicely.)

I strongly encourage people to conjecture on the origin of the world. Such intellectual activity has great value. I am sure that Buddha would agree with me.
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Old 03-27-2009, 05:11 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

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Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot View Post
"Buddha said that conjecture on origins of the world would cause madness and vexation to whomever conjectured about it."

1. I do not believe Buddha would say such a thing.
Acintita Sutta

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?
"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas1 is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...2
"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

Quote:
2. Such statements cause me to call myself a non-Buddhist. I believe in a soul, today's Buddhists are not allowed to believe in a soul, and this makes me perfectly content to not call myself a Buddhist. (Buddha said there is no such thing as an eternal soul, which fits in my belief system quite nicely.)

I strongly encourage people to conjecture on the origin of the world. Such intellectual activity has great value. I am sure that Buddha would agree with me.
Learning to deal with madness and vexation is a good thing, imo.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

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Originally Posted by juantoo3 View Post
Not to worry, the sky won't crash down on your head for not understanding. Abiogenesis is the study of the origins of life, and is quite a separate study from that of the origins of the universe. It is also quite a different study than evolution.



No. Quantum physics is such a new way of looking at things, and creation myths are centuries if not millenia old. Heck, most sciences still haven't incorporated quantum physics, and frankly its a bit too early to do so anyway. The concept has yet to fully fledge. Who knows? Ten years from now it may be shown to be a wild goose chase, barking up the wrong tree. We won't know until we better explore the avenues it presents.

I will throw out one wild card to consider...Mandelbrot sets.

As for creation myths, those I have heard from Native American traditions have nothing to do with quantum physics. They are ways of explaining why the tribe relates to certain things/animals/plants/situations and circumstances in traditional ways.
hello and thanks for the term abiogenesis.

is qm a 'new' way? when l start reading eastern philosophies wave/particle spirit/matter seem dissolved or are 'ways' of seeing same thing. interestingly unlike western philosophy [ok lets blame descartes again,nah,he worked within a christian dualistic paradigm!] who see mind and matter as distinct, it is consciousness that is distinct from the mind, which is conceived of in a material way [can look up ref's if needed].

didn't realise mandelbrots were mathematical sets; but have always thought fractuals in nature was evidence of 'design'. have delved into therapies many of which [reflexology.polarity therapy,taoist,subtle bodies] have the macrocosm of the whole body in parts of. and the structure/patterns of water [photos by a japanese l think] changed by healing etc. electro- magnetic energy we literally know 'the tip of the iceberg' scientifically speaking.

if youve posted any american indian cosmogony previously l would be interested to read. but yes early religions were perhaps as durkheim said societies worshipping themselves [and so totems of real and super imagined animals and beings reaching high high], basically finding, making meaning and order within the environment and remembering the ones gone before.
still awe and reverence to nature and its forces inculcated a respect and honour to the earth and its resources sadly lacking which put me off corned beef from argentina and mcdonalds hamburgers, ok l cant save the rain forests but if we all did our bit...
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

hi nick
from your theosophy post [#19 l think]

'Spirit's flame (the Ray that was emitted) merged with coldness of pre-matter. That act created energy. This living energy linked each one of the individual points of light with the “sea” of existence.'

seems like electro magnetism again ?[and imagined michealangelo's ceiling 'creation']!

l am familiar with the seven rays system through interest in chakras and alice bailey books on esoteric astrology [the science of triangles and sacred geometry] but have a t-shirt with 'i know nothing' on it with regard to its teachings as concealed.

suffice to say she says 'for matter is spirit at its lowest point and spirit is matter at its highest' [pg 340 of the 'true clue to cancer/capricorn relationship'; 'esoteric astrology']

as l just flicked through the book l thought it may be of interest to post
'the great invocation' here

From the point of Light within the Mind of God
Let Light stream forth into the minds of men
Let Light descend on Earth

From the point of Love within the Heart of God
Let Love stream forth into the hearts of men
May Christ return to Earth

From the centre where the Will of God is known
Let purpose guide the little wills of men-
The purpose of which the Masters know and serve

From the centre which we call the race of men
Let the plan of Love and Light work out
And may it seal the door where evil dwells

Let Light and Love and Power restore the Plan on Earth

[btw here cosmic christ seen as avatar, initiator of humanity's path]
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:49 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

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Buddha said that conjecture on origins of the world would cause madness and vexation to whomever conjectured about it.
thanks, he was not called awake for nothing! an old roman catholic woman told me not to get in too deep with philosophy when she heard l was studying. thinking such speculations too ungodly probably bringing doubt and scpeticism, yet echoing neitzsche's [?] aphorism along the lines of 'don't look into the abyss else it looks back at you'!
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:57 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: the origin of life and the universe

nativeastral,

You said,

"...he was not called awake for nothing!"

--> Correct!

"an old roman catholic woman told me not to get in too deep with philosophy when she heard l was studying."

--> I, too, have encountered this fundamentalist attitude many times, both from Christian and Buddhist sources.

"thinking such speculations too ungodly probably bringing doubt and scpeticism...."

--> You have hit the nail on the head. Let's call this by its true name -- the protection of fundamentalist dogmatism. Fundamentalists of all types do not want people asking critical questions about their dogma. Such questions probe at weaknesses within a dogma, and fundamentalists hate such questions. I find it humerous to hear the idea that thinking deep thoughts on the nature of the universe will drive us crazy. This is the protection of fundamentalism of the most obvious type.

I (along with thousands of other people who share my belief system) believe that doubt and scepticism are healthy things. (I think you agree?)

My belief system is just the oppositie. Fundamantalism is forbidden in my belief system. We actually encourage critical thinking and open-minded questions that probe untruths guarded by fundamentalism. I am glad to have found such belief system.

"seems like electro magnetism again?"

--> Enegry comes in many forms. (If I remember correctly, electromagnatism is one of the four types of energy.) Energy is a third component that is often left out of discussions of the emergence of the universe. Yes, spirit and matter interacted to create our universe. But spirit and matter needed energy to do that.

"...matter is spirit at its lowest point and spirit is matter at its highest."

--> It is an axiom in my belief system that spirit and matter are only two forms of the same thing. They are two forms of the same thing, moving in opposite directions.
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