The OT Prophecies Concerning Jesus

[Bandit]

4 pages & there is only one verse done? geesh. no wonder i am not joining this one, again.

certain things like this seriously need to go into a one on one discussion, because it is so lengthy & too many redundant things that keep popping up.

any way, have fun Dondi & i guess it would be a good time for the next verse.

and what passage will that be at? <drum roll>

[BlaznFattyz]

heres a couple ot verses for you.

Isaiah 40:3-5 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD ; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. 5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

then it is repeated in Matthew 3:1-3, Matthew 11:10-14, Mark 1:2-3, Luke 1:17, Luke 3:2-6, Luke 7:27, John 1:23

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

then it is repeated in Matthew 21:1-9, Mark 11:1-11, John 12:12-16

[Dondi]

OK. Let's continue. Again, I want to take these one at a time, so we'll go with Zechariah 9:9 first.

Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

In Matthew 21:1-9, Mark 11:1-11, John 12:12-16, this is referencing Jesus' entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, the beginning of the Holy Week before Easter. But looking at the entire chapter, Zechariah 9, the context of the passage is dealing with war against the surrounding nations around Israel. Notice the verses before and after vs 9:

8And I will encamp about mine house because of the army, because of him that passeth by, and because of him that returneth: and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes.

9Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

So this one riding out on a colt of a donkey would bring peace to Israel. But Jesus never accomplished this when he rode in that Palm Sunday. Nor did his dominion extent from sea even to sea. In fact, 40 years later in 70 C.E, Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed and the Jews dispersed around the world. Jesus certainly didn't bring his salvation then, nor set up his kingdom, as the Messiah is expected to do.

[Faithfulservant]

Are we still doing this from the Jewish point of view? We are spirit beings housed in bodies of flesh. Salvation is spiritual.. the peace is spiritual.. We war not against flesh and blood because the true war isnt against flesh and blood. His kingdom is not of this world.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Are we still doing this from the Jewish point of view? We are spirit beings housed in bodies of flesh. Salvation is spiritual.. the peace is spiritual.. We war not against flesh and blood because the true war isnt against flesh and blood. His kingdom is not of this world.

right..this is a deep settled peace that passes all understanding.
people are looking for peace & joy only in the carnal & that is not where Jesus is.

[Plaidback]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Are we still doing this from the Jewish point of view? We are spirit beings housed in bodies of flesh. Salvation is spiritual.. the peace is spiritual.. We war not against flesh and blood because the true war isnt against flesh and blood. His kingdom is not of this world.

Excellent point !! Living God was Spirit being, huosed in body of
Jesus, also. In His testimony about " His " second coming, or end of Time,
In Matthew 24, He clearly, used three times term " Son of Man ",
and not, Me, Jesus, will be back. Which is truth about Him, today, or whenever
you believe that day of coming of Son of Man might take place. Coming, totaly unexpected, silent, like thief in the Night, when no one will be ready.
Salvation is a Condition that you have ( as combination of your genes ) in
your blood or you don't. Something hereditary, like diabetes or whatheveyou
The Peace is lack of time, absolute freedom, no Limits, whatsoever, Within
Present reality.
His Kingdom couldn't possibly be of this World, because it started somewhere,
Long, long , before this World was created.
But, Fact still is, His Kingdom was here, in Flesh, for 33 years,
2000 years ago. And He promised, He'll be Back,this time as ordinary Dude,
Man of some father, that is going to tell you what is actualy happening,
using, Television, Internetvision, and any other Vision anybody on Planet
might Have. And after that the End will happen.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Are we still doing this from the Jewish point of view? We are spirit beings housed in bodies of flesh. Salvation is spiritual.. the peace is spiritual.. We war not against flesh and blood because the true war isnt against flesh and blood. His kingdom is not of this world.

No, we are doing this from a biblical point of view. You point of view of spiritual warfare is a valid arguement, but what does that have to do with the question at hand? The wars Israel fought in with the surrounding nations were deadly real. Salvation from God in this case was not in the spiritual context, that is salvation from hell, but rather salvation from Israel's mortal enemies. I don't know why you are trying to spiritualize the argument. Just read what the Zechariah says.

[Bandit]

who is going to be running the millenial kingdom?
how can there be world peace if the devil is still on the loose?
that is not about world peace right then.IMO

i believe the destruction of the temple was prophesied by Jesus or somehting to that effect.

i remember Jesus saying there would be wars & rumors of wars & a lot of things that are not about peace...does the natural man just stop just because of Calvary?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

who is going to be running the millenial kingdom?
how can there be world peace if the devil is still on the loose?
that is not about world peace right then.IMO

i believe the destruction of the temple was prophesied by Jesus or somehting to that effect.

i remember Jesus saying there would be wars & rumors of wars & a lot of things that are not about peace...does the natural man just stop just because of Calvary?

I'm still focusing on the events of Zechariah 9. Your talking about the future. If Zechariah 9:9 is a Messianic prophecy, then when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey, he should have right then and there ushered the Kingdom of God, according to the surrounding text of the verse. Look at verse 10 again:

10And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Why didn't this happen upon Jesus' entry into Jerusalem?

[Faithfulservant]

Well.. I believe this prophecy is ongoing and wasnt complelely fulfilled with Him riding in on a donkey.. other parts of Zec including vs1o refer to latter days.. Israel has not accepted Jesus as King yes but we know in other prophecies that they will..

Of course the wars are deadly and real.. but the true wars are of the spirit because those wars are the ones that put us at risk. We die.. we ALL die.. Wars are acts of men not acts of God..

Im sorry I see what Im trying to say and Im not getting my point across. I feel like your limiting this prophecy to just physical.. and because I have never touched Jesus Christ.. all my experiences with my Savior have been spiritual so in that I can understand what I am saying.

Good luck with your searching, Dondi.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I'm still focusing on the events of Zechariah 9. Your talking about the future. If Zechariah 9:9 is a Messianic prophecy, then when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey, he should have right then and there ushered the Kingdom of God, according to the surrounding text of the verse. Look at verse 10 again:

10And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Why didn't this happen upon Jesus' entry into Jerusalem?

You did not answer my questions but I am supposed to answer yours?.
The Kingdom of God could not literally start until after the death, burial & resurrection.

i dont see where it says that all that would happen right then & there, no more than i see it saying he SHALL BE CALLED (is. 9), all being fulfilled in one time & place.

If you are expecting world peace from someone with a marvelous blueprint that has everyone sitting in a chair saying "I love you" to each other, I think you might find yourself picking the wrong guy out of desparation.
it seems to me God said, you are going to get a man on a donkey. Yet the world demands a man in a Rolls Royce.
well, too bad.

You have to look past the carnal kingdoms & see that Jesus brought a spiritual kingdom that is being established through time. Have you ever heard of something called the New Jerusalem? & the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Israel & the Church have two different purposes on the earth. If it were not for Jesus, the gentile would have had no chance, making God a respctor of persons.
He said MY PEACE I leave with you, MY PEACE I give unto you & that is the peace of the living God, through Jesus, establishing an eternal Kingdom from sea to shining sea.

by looking at it the way you are, it is more like tunnel vision, missing the other parts to all of this. then, i get tunnel vision as well sometimes.

i think you should answer your own question for yourself from here.
so go with the Rolls if you must, I am sticking with the man on the donkey.

[BlaznFattyz]

jesus did come lowly on a donkey rather than a war horse. the confusion is in mans mind when they seek a person who will save them by judging their enemies and destroying them. however, jesus did not come into this world for that reason, but to love and serve others and save them through his perfect sacrifice for our sins on the cross. because his chosen people do not believe in gods son whom god sent, though he does the work and speaks the truth of his father, and has fulfilled prophesies, performed miracles, and was announced by John the Baptist, some still do not believe, which is why it is said in the scriptures -- because of their unbelief they will be dispersed, taken over, and will not find rest.

[InChristAlways]

let me be absolutely clear about this. i do not have a problem with christians being christian. i do not have a problem with christians believing jesus to be their messiah. i do not have a problem with their justifying these positions through interpretative techniques which are not mediated through judaism. what i do have a problem with is the holding up of judaism as "blind", "hard-hearted" and, therefore, essentially wrong.

i do not find christian theology convincing - although i find it in many ways passionate and beautiful and see it as a perfectly acceptable and sustainable basis for righteous living. i do not consider that it fits the sources better than the interpretation of my own tradition - although i can understand how christian interpretations follow from their interpretative methodology and support their right to use it. in short, christianity is all very well - but it doesn't work for me.

Hi bana. Judaism is of course just another religion that focuses mainly on the Torah of the OT.

All the OT prohecies in Scripture concerning Israel/Judah show the Time of the End/Day of the Lord happening after the messiah shows up for Israel to "redeem them".
This is why a lot of Christians are waiting for Jesus to return to "smack" Israel again and bring forth an "earthly reign".

I of course do not agree with the "bodily earthly reign of Jesus" in the future, but in either case, Israel cannot be redeemed until both the messiah comes and the Day of the Lord afterward, then a new "heavens and earth".

For example, why did God have the jews build another temple just to have it destroyed in the future?[Daniel's 70 weeks] Was this because the Lord had to have a temple to come to and the way God would show His true glory to Israel/Judah by destroying it?

Haggai 1:8 "Go up to the mountains and bring wood and build the temple, that I may take pleasure in it and be glorified," says the LORD.

Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O heavens, for the LORD has done [it!] Shout, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into singing, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the LORD has redeemed [#01351] Jacob, And glorified [#06286] Himself in Israel.

Ezekiel 39:13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the Day that I am glorified,"[#03513] says the Lord GOD.

3513 kabad kaw-bad' or kabed {kaw-bade'}; a primitive root; to be heavy, i.e. in a bad sense (burdensome, severe, dull) or in a good sense (numerous, rich, honorable; causatively, to make weighty (in the same two senses):--abounding with, more grievously afflict, boast, be chargeable, X be dim, glorify, be (make) glorious

Roman 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ['You are] not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

[InChristAlways]

i do not findchristian theology convincing - although i find it in many ways passionate and beautiful and see it as a perfectly acceptable and sustainable basis for righteous living. i do not consider that it fits the sources better than the interpretation of my own tradition - although i can understand how christian interpretations follow from their interpretative methodology and support their right to use it. in short, christianity is all very well - but it doesn't work for me.

Originally Posted by Dondi I'm still focusing on the events of Zechariah 9. Your talking about the future. If Zechariah 9:9 is a Messianic prophecy, then when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey, he should have right then and there ushered the Kingdom of God, according to the surrounding text of the verse. Look at verse 10 again:

quote Bandit: You have to look past the carnal kingdoms & see that Jesus brought a spiritual kingdom that is being established through time. Have you ever heard of something called the New Jerusalem? & the gift of the Holy Ghost?
Israel & the Church have two different purposes on the earth. If it were not for Jesus, the gentile would have had no chance, making God a respctor of persons.
He said MY PEACE I leave with you, MY PEACE I give unto you & that is the peace of the living God, through Jesus, establishing an eternal Kingdom from sea to shining sea.by looking at it the way you are, it is more like tunnel vision, missing the other parts to all of this. then, i get tunnel vision as well sometimes.

Hi Bandit. I agree with your view.

Did you ever notice in the OT prophecies how "future" prophecies are put in the "past tense"? I remember when I first read the Bible how this confused me, as how could Jacob/Israel already be "redeemed" before the redeemer came and is that what you mean by "tunnel vision"?

In what way would Jacob/Israel be "redeemed"
Steve

ga'al (Strong's 01350) occurs 104 times in 84 verses: Page 4, verses 76 - 84

Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O heavens, for the LORD has done [it!] Shout, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into singing, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the LORD has redeemed [#01350] Jacob, And glorified [#06286] Himself in Israel.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

Hi Bandit. I agree with your view.

Did you ever notice in the OT prophecies how "future" prophecies are put in the "past tense"? I remember when I first read the Bible how this confused me, as how could Jacob/Israel already be "redeemed" before the redeemer came and is that what you mean by "tunnel vision"?

In what way would Jacob/Israel be "redeemed"
Steve

ga'al (Strong's 01350) occurs 104 times in 84 verses: Page 4, verses 76 - 84

Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O heavens, for the LORD has done [it!] Shout, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into singing, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the LORD has redeemed [#01350] Jacob, And glorified [#06286] Himself in Israel.

yes i have noticed that very much so. just like shall be saved/shall call his name... has a future & present tense to it where as saved by itself gives you a past tense. very interesting for sure.

shall save them from the uttermost-like a definate all in a matter of the fullness of time.