The OT Prophecies Concerning Jesus

Dondi · 08-28-2005, 08:57 PM

I have always been fascinated with biblical prophecy. In my study bible, there is a section that lays down 40 major OT prophecies concerning Jesus. I have read that taken together that the chances of any one person fulfilling all 40 of these prophecies is astronomical.

But looking at these prophecies up close, I find some of them wanting. For example, Isaiah 7:14 say, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name, Immanuel." (Immanuel meaning God is with us) Now on the surface, it appears to be obviously referring to the virgin birth of Christ. But when you look into the context of Isaiah chapter 7, the backgroung for this verse has Ahaz, king of Judah, trying to deal with Rezin, king of Syria and Remaliah, king of Israel (the kingdom of Israel was divided after Solomon's reign). Ahaz gets a word from Isaiah telling him that God is with Ahaz, and that Syria and Israel will not stand against Judah. Then Isaiah gives Ahaz comfort in the form of a sign of the birth of a baby boy. And that before the child knows to refuse evil, God will defeat Syria and Israel. In Isaiah 8:10, it says, "Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us". So it seems that this is a prophecy meant for King Ahaz and the kingdom of Judah, that God will be with them in this trying time of these adversaries, namely the King fo Israel and the king of Syria. And that this prophecy was fulfilled in that day.

Why then is this prophecy, which already came to past, attributed to Jesus in the NT (Matt. 1:23)?

I have similar questions on other prophesies, but I'd thought we'd deal with these one at a time. Thank you.

Quahom1 · 08-28-2005, 09:25 PM

First let us consider the Messianic prophecies, of which there are I believe over 300, concerning the first coming, and over 500 concerning the second coming.

The only way for Jesus to be accepted as the Messiah, is if He fulfills every Messianic prophesy. The chances of one man fulfilling even eight of the OT prophecies is about 1 in 10 to the 17th power, 40 of them would be 1 in 10 to the 157th power, and 60 of them would be 1 in 10 to the 895th power.

It is said, that Jesus has fulfilled over 1,093 prophecies to date.

You mention Isaiah, and suggest having trouble with that passage, but consider Genesis and Galatians, and Micah, all backing up Isaiah. Micah is specific about where the Messiah will be born, and when.

My thoughts.

v/r

Q

Oops, my bad. Daniel describes exactly when the Messiah will be born.

Abogado del Diablo · 08-29-2005, 12:12 AM

Unless, of course, the story was written with the prophecies in mind . . .

. . . just living up to my name.

Dondi · 08-29-2005, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

First let us consider the Messianic prophecies, of which there are I believe over 300, concerning the first coming, and over 500 concerning the second coming.

The only way for Jesus to be accepted as the Messiah, is if He fulfills every Messianic prophesy. The chances of one man fulfilling even eight of the OT prophecies is about 1 in 10 to the 17th power, 40 of them would be 1 in 10 to the 157th power, and 60 of them would be 1 in 10 to the 895th power.

It is said, that Jesus has fulfilled over 1,093 prophecies to date. .

Yes, those are the figures I remember reading about. Thank you.

Quote:

You mention Isaiah, and suggest having trouble with that passage, but consider Genesis and Galatians, and Micah, all backing up Isaiah. Micah is specific about where the Messiah will be born, and when.

That's all well and good. But you didn't really answer my question. I am familiar with most of the OT prophesies concerning Jesus. But for the benefit for others, it would help if you were a bit more specific.

Basically the answer I'm looking for is the explanation for why some of these prophesies which are already apparently fulfilled are translated to Christ?

Quahom1 · 08-29-2005, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Yes, those are the figures I remember reading about. Thank you.

That's all well and good. But you didn't really answer my question. I am familiar with most of the OT prophesies concerning Jesus. But for the benefit for others, it would help if you were a bit more specific.

Basically the answer I'm looking for is the explanation for why some of these prophesies which are already apparently fulfilled are translated to Christ?

Perhaps, due to many prophecies holding a double meaning. In other words, one prophecy having two distinct fulfillments at different times.

Just a thought.

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Q

Dor · 08-29-2005, 10:08 AM

I do not see where this was fulfilled if you break the chapter down by section the way it goes.

The section of 7.1-9 is God's reassurance to him that IF HE STANDS FIRM IN FAITH, his kingdom will endure. It is NOT an unconditional promise, but one DEPENDENT upon Ahaz' faithfulness.
Then Section 7.10-12 God gave him another chance told him to name his sign to help his struggling faith and Ahaz not only does he tell him he will not ask but he sarcastically uses a bible verse in the process.
Then section 7.13-15 God gave him a sign anyway. A sign of their deliverance. That promised birth supposed the preservation of that city and nation and tribe of which the Messiah was to be born so there was no reason to fear the ruin which the enemies threatened.
Then section 7.17-25 God warned him of the judgement coming before that child was born.

Dondi · 08-29-2005, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Perhaps, due to many prophecies holding a double meaning. In other words, one prophecy having two distinct fulfillments at different times.

Just a thought.

v/r

Q

What principle in hermanetics is used to determine if a prophecy has a dual fulfillment?

Quahom1 · 08-29-2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

What principle in hermanetics is used to determine if a prophecy has a dual fulfillment?

By hermeneutics, if you mean secret interpretive as opposed to the Greek function, then I guess Joel immediately comes to mind.

"And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD ... I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there ..." (Joel 2:28-3:2).

Inspired by God, his writings come to pass, but then, they speak of a final fulfillment of the prophecy at the end time, before Jesus' return.

Other passages warned the Israelites of the time, and have the same warning for us in the modern day. That is what I mean by dual fulfillment. These "prophesies" can be applied today as they were yesteryear...with the same results if not heeded.

Does that make is a non-prophesy? It certainly is not secretive; in fact it is in plain sight.

My thoughts.

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Q

Dondi · 08-30-2005, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

I do not see where this was fulfilled if you break the chapter down by section the way it goes.

The section of 7.1-9 is God's reassurance to him that IF HE STANDS FIRM IN FAITH, his kingdom will endure. It is NOT an unconditional promise, but one DEPENDENT upon Ahaz' faithfulness.
Then Section 7.10-12 God gave him another chance told him to name his sign to help his struggling faith and Ahaz not only does he tell him he will not ask but he sarcastically uses a bible verse in the process.
Then section 7.13-15 God gave him a sign anyway. A sign of their deliverance. That promised birth supposed the preservation of that city and nation and tribe of which the Messiah was to be born so there was no reason to fear the ruin which the enemies threatened.
Then section 7.17-25 God warned him of the judgement coming before that child was born.

Yeah, but in chapter 8:1-4, this child is born:

1Moreover the LORD said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz.

2And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.

3And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz. 4For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.

How do you derive the Messiah from that? Or is this child Mahershalalhashbaz the Messiah?

Dondi · 08-30-2005, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

By hermeneutics, if you mean secret interpretive as opposed to the Greek function, then I guess Joel immediately comes to mind.

"And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD ... I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there ..." (Joel 2:28-3:2).

Inspired by God, his writings come to pass, but then, they speak of a final fulfillment of the prophecy at the end time, before Jesus' return.

Other passages warned the Israelites of the time, and have the same warning for us in the modern day. That is what I mean by dual fulfillment. These "prophesies" can be applied today as they were yesteryear...with the same results if not heeded.

Does that make is a non-prophesy? It certainly is not secretive; in fact it is in plain sight.

My thoughts.

v/r

Q

You kinda picked a bad example. The book of Joel is explicitly prophetic. Practically the whole book speaks of the last days. So yes, Joel is a prophesy not yet fulfillied. But there is not resolution at the end of Joel, that is there is no narrative showing any action on the part of the Isralites. In fact, Joel 1:3, the exhortation to "Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation" indicates that this is a standing prophesy. But what I'm talking about are instances of prophesy or the word of the Lord that specifically were fulfilled in the times and days that it was given, as in the example I gave above.

Perhaps another example of what you are talking about can clear this up, will you? And could you explain the difference between secretive interpretive and the Greek function?

Quahom1 · 08-31-2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

You kinda picked a bad example. The book of Joel is explicitly prophetic. Practically the whole book speaks of the last days. So yes, Joel is a prophesy not yet fulfillied. But there is not resolution at the end of Joel, that is there is no narrative showing any action on the part of the Isralites. In fact, Joel 1:3, the exhortation to "Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation" indicates that this is a standing prophesy. But what I'm talking about are instances of prophesy or the word of the Lord that specifically were fulfilled in the times and days that it was given, as in the example I gave above.

Perhaps another example of what you are talking about can clear this up, will you? And could you explain the difference between secretive interpretive and the Greek function?

If you do not mind terribly, I'd like to expound on this set of verses, but then later, I'd be pleased to present others for your consideration.

"And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."

After the Ascention of Jesus, there was a lull, and the Disciples and believers were huddled and afraid. The Holy Spirit, then literally poured upon them. In fact tongues of flame decended upon their heads, and they began prophecying and spoke in languages that all could understand at the same time. And men expressed visions, and women too...and the people who heard wondered at what manner was this that these simple people could express to each in their own language the word of the Risen Christ...(Pentacost).

That was then. Jeremiah says it will happen again.

"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD ... I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there ..." (Joel 2:28-3:2).

This one is interesting in its particular parallels. The wonders in the heavens and in the earth: volcanoes, (Mt. Vesuvius, for example, and Mt. St. Helens today, for example). The eclipse of the sun, not before recorded Jeremiah's time...blood colored moon? Eruptions of volcanoes assist in creating a blood moon, as well as other massive pollutants, expelled into the atmosphere all at once. The atom bomb created a blood moon. All nations have not yet gathered in the Valley of Jehoshaphat... or have they? The valley of graves, where once the confederate enemies of Israel were defeated. In the future, where all nations gather to be defeated again, as they war against Israel? It will happen in a day, as it happened in a day once before.

As I said, interesting parallels.

What do you think?

v/r

Q

Dor · 08-31-2005, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Yeah, but in chapter 8:1-4, this child is born:

1Moreover the LORD said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz.

2And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.

3And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz. 4For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.

How do you derive the Messiah from that? Or is this child Mahershalalhashbaz the Messiah?

No that was a different child that was a child born to Isaiah and his wife the prophetess(hardly a virgin or a young maiden). There are 3 different children spoke of in Isaiah 7-9 Shear-jashub(child of Isaiah and his wife), Maher-shalal-hash-baz(child of Isaiah and his wife) and a child mentioned in 7:14 with no reverance to a father and only the refrence to his mother as a virgin(or young maiden if you prefer) and then that same child was mentioned again in Isaiah not in Ch 8 but in Ch 9

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. :7 Of the increase of his government and peace thereshallbe no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

So no the Child mentioned in Ch 8 was not the messiah.

Turok76 · 08-31-2005, 10:20 PM

Can you tell me the 40 major messianic prophecies please? I know there are hundreds, but which are the top 40?

Quahom1 · 08-31-2005, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turok76

Can you tell me the 40 major messianic prophecies please? I know there are hundreds, but which are the top 40?

Dor? Do you have time, or shall I? I think this is important.

Dondi · 09-01-2005, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turok76

Can you tell me the 40 major messianic prophecies please? I know there are hundreds, but which are the top 40?

Here is a link to some of the major prophecies fulfilled in Christ, broken down by catagory. Most were fulfilled in the last week of Jesus' life:

http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre17hdan09b.html