"The Passion of the Christ"

[glittle]

For those who are interested, here is a statement with a sampling of Sacred Baha'i Writings giving a Baha'i understanding of the suffering of Jesus Christ:
http://www.calgary-bahai.org/web/page.asp?id=67

[I, Brian]

Okay, I'm going to copy/paste that here for more direct discussion :


The Passion of the Christ

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things.”1

So wrote Bahá'u'lláh in praise of Him who is the central figure in The Passion of the Christ, the movie released in February 2004.

"My Pen groaneth, and all created things weep with a great weeping, as a result of the woes He suffered”2

"Jesus Christ knew this would come to pass and was content to suffer. His abasement was His glorification; His crown of thorns, a heavenly diadem. When they pressed it upon His blessed head and spat in His beautiful face, they laid the foundation of His everlasting Kingdom.”3

The Bahá'í Faith, without hesitation, declares the Divinity and Holiness of Jesus of Nazareth. And that same Word who “became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth”4 has again appeared as the “glory of God” and today, people of “every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues”5 are called by that new name: the Bahá'ís.6

Jesus Christ gave His life upon the cross for the unity of mankind. Those who believed in Him likewise sacrificed life, honor, possessions, family, everything, that this human world might be released from the hell of discord, enmity and strife.”7

Throughout the ages, God has worked in mysterious ways in the unfolding of His Plan for mankind. By the suffering of Jesus, “a fresh capacity was infused into all created things”. By the manifestation of Bahá'u'lláh, “the new heaven and the new earth are come”.8

The Passion of the Christ dramatically reminds us of the depth of God’s love for us, expressed by Him who is the “Face of God”.9 Our response should be to love God and strive with all our heart to put that love into action in the world around us.

“Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.”10

In our love for God, may all people and faiths strive to unite in service to humanity and in our efforts to be a source of peace in this world.11

1 Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84 http://www.bahai.com/writings2/Bahau...ings/81-85.htm


2 Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXIII http://www.bahai.com/writings2/Bahau...ings/56-60.htm


3 Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 5


4 Bible, John 1:14


5 Bible, Rev 7:9


6 http://www.bahai.org/


7 Abdu’l-Bahá, http://www.bahai.com/writings3/AbdulBaha/peace/3-5.htm


8 Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 12


9 Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts


10 Bahá’u’lláh, The Arabic Hidden Words, #5


11 The Promise of World Peace http://www.bahai.org/article-1-7-2-1.html

[ABCD1234]

Brian,

For those interested in the academic field of studying religion, these articles may be of interest to you.

I wouldn't recommend "cut/paste" either of these articles. The first one is 11 pages long, while the other is 21.


http://bahai-library.com/?file=stock..._writings.html
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/bhjesu.htm

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Okay, I'm going to copy/paste that here for more direct discussion :


The Passion of the Christ

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things.”1

So wrote Bahá'u'lláh in praise of Him who is the central figure in The Passion of the Christ, the movie released in February 2004.

"My Pen groaneth, and all created things weep with a great weeping, as a result of the woes He suffered”2

"Jesus Christ knew this would come to pass and was content to suffer. His abasement was His glorification; His crown of thorns, a heavenly diadem. When they pressed it upon His blessed head and spat in His beautiful face, they laid the foundation of His everlasting Kingdom.”3

The Bahá'í Faith, without hesitation, declares the Divinity and Holiness of Jesus of Nazareth. And that same Word who “became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth”4 has again appeared as the “glory of God” and today, people of “every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues”5 are called by that new name: the Bahá'ís.6

Jesus Christ gave His life upon the cross for the unity of mankind. Those who believed in Him likewise sacrificed life, honor, possessions, family, everything, that this human world might be released from the hell of discord, enmity and strife.”7

Throughout the ages, God has worked in mysterious ways in the unfolding of His Plan for mankind. By the suffering of Jesus, “a fresh capacity was infused into all created things”. By the manifestation of Bahá'u'lláh, “the new heaven and the new earth are come”.8

The Passion of the Christ dramatically reminds us of the depth of God’s love for us, expressed by Him who is the “Face of God”.9 Our response should be to love God and strive with all our heart to put that love into action in the world around us.

“Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.”10

In our love for God, may all people and faiths strive to unite in service to humanity and in our efforts to be a source of peace in this world.11

1 Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84 http://www.bahai.com/writings2/Bahau...ings/81-85.htm


2 Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXIII http://www.bahai.com/writings2/Bahau...ings/56-60.htm


3 Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 5


4 Bible, John 1:14


5 Bible, Rev 7:9


6 http://www.bahai.org/


7 Abdu’l-Bahá, http://www.bahai.com/writings3/AbdulBaha/peace/3-5.htm


8 Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 12


9 Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts


10 Bahá’u’lláh, The Arabic Hidden Words, #5


11 The Promise of World Peace http://www.bahai.org/article-1-7-2-1.html

[I, Brian]

I think I'll pass on those writings until I have time to sit down and really read through them.

The reason I pasted the above, actually, was because some of the language didn't seem to make sense to myself.

For example, "Son of Man" is an extremely loaded term in Christology, and the implicit statement "laid the foundation of His everlasting Kingdom" I would have thought a particularly Christian term of reference.

I'm curious as to what was actually meant by "everlasting kingdom" and how the Baha'i interpretation differs from the Christian.

[Susma Rio Sep]

This is not intended to be offensive to Baha'i people or anyone else. It is intended to be a legitimate question. And a serious answer is hoped for.

On the assumption that Baha'i believes in a God who is omnipotent and omni-everything, is not the passion and death of Jesus all part of the script of God, the Christian God.

This God could have written a different script for the salvation of man.

The whole passion and death of Jesus is not so full of shock and awe when we consider that He is God, and as per script He would come back to life and go into the glorious existence at the right hand of the Father.

If anyone human is like Jesus he can also go through any passion and rise from death and go to heaven.

Creation, fall, and redemption by the life, passion, death of Jesus, is all a script of God, the Christian God. And since He is God, He could have produced a different script, where there is creation but no need for a redemption because man never goes through any original fall-out with God.

Susma Rio Sep

[ABCD1234]

Susma,

Pardon me if I've missed something in your post, but what exactly are you trying to ask here?

FYI, Baha'is don't believe in the concept of "original sin."

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

This is not intended to be offensive to Baha'i people or anyone else. It is intended to be a legitimate question. And a serious answer is hoped for.

On the assumption that Baha'i believes in a God who is omnipotent and omni-everything, is not the passion and death of Jesus all part of the script of God, the Christian God.

This God could have written a different script for the salvation of man.

The whole passion and death of Jesus is not so full of shock and awe when we consider that He is God, and as per script He would come back to life and go into the glorious existence at the right hand of the Father.

If anyone human is like Jesus he can also go through any passion and rise from death and go to heaven.

Creation, fall, and redemption by the life, passion, death of Jesus, is all a script of God, the Christian God. And since He is God, He could have produced a different script, where there is creation but no need for a redemption because man never goes through any original fall-out with God.

Susma Rio Sep

[Susma Rio Sep]

ABCD writes:

Susma,

Pardon me if I've missed something in your post, but what exactly are you trying to ask here?

FYI, Baha'is don't believe in the concept of "original sin."

(Quote: Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep)

This is not intended to be offensive to Baha'i people or anyone else. It is intended to be a legitimate question. And a serious answer is hoped for.

On the assumption that Baha'i believes in a God who is omnipotent and omni-everything, is not the passion and death of Jesus all part of the script of God, the Christian God.

This God could have written a different script for the salvation of man.

The whole passion and death of Jesus is not so full of shock and awe when we consider that He is God, and as per script He would come back to life and go into the glorious existence at the right hand of the Father.

If anyone human is like Jesus he can also go through any passion and rise from death and go to heaven.

Creation, fall, and redemption by the life, passion, death of Jesus, is all a script of God, the Christian God. And since He is God, He could have produced a different script, where there is creation but no need for a redemption because man never goes through any original fall-out with God.

Susma Rio Sep (unquote)

Dear ABCD, maybe you were a Christian before and possessed of the general beliefs of Christians. Anyway you certainly must know about Christianity, it's part of the armatorium of a culture of religion among posters here.

My purpose is to find out what reactions Christians or others might have to my allegations here. People can agree with me or disagree, and explain why. This exchange of thoughts is what makes for relevance in any internet boards.

I am glad that I can presume you would not be offended with my allegations, for not being a Christian. But you do have some opinions; at least you know about the monotheist God of Christians -- part of any culture of religion.

Best regards,

Susma Rio Sep

[ABCD1234]

Brian,

The 21 page article by Juan Cole was originally published in the "Journal of the American Academy of Religion," whereas the author explores these themes that you're asking here. I highly recommend it.

The 11 page article by Robert Stockman, the author attempts to define, analyze and overcome differences of terminology that exist between Christianity and the Bahá'í Faith. One of the strengths of his paper is that he shows a desire to reach out to Christians by acknowledging the legitimacy of certain Christian terms, even though he believes they are somewhat alien to the Bahá'í Faith.

In Juan Cole's article, Bahá'u'lláh presents the crucifixion as a cosmic event, and ties this in with what one might call the Bahá'í theory of civilization. . .Cole comments: "Jesus' passion is here identified as the motive force behind Christian civilization, the unseen source of human advance. On the one hand, this passage evokes something like the Eastern Orthodox image of Jesus as the Cosmic Christ, as Pantocrator, the Ruler of All. On the other, Bahá'u'lláh as a nineteenth-century thinker innovates in linking the redemption gained by the cross to ideas such as civilization, progress, and the arts and sciences. Christ not only saved individual souls but engendered by his teachings and self-sacrifice an entire civilization."

Cole's analysis appears to be in line with your question regarding the statement "laid the foundation of His everlasting Kingdom."

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I think I'll pass on those writings until I have time to sit down and really read through them.

The reason I pasted the above, actually, was because some of the language didn't seem to make sense to myself.

For example, "Son of Man" is an extremely loaded term in Christology, and the implicit statement "laid the foundation of His everlasting Kingdom" I would have thought a particularly Christian term of reference.

I'm curious as to what was actually meant by "everlasting kingdom" and how the Baha'i interpretation differs from the Christian.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

This is not intended to be offensive to Baha'i people or anyone else. It is intended to be a legitimate question. And a serious answer is hoped for.

On the assumption that Baha'i believes in a God who is omnipotent and omni-everything, is not the passion and death of Jesus all part of the script of God, the Christian God.

This God could have written a different script for the salvation of man.

The whole passion and death of Jesus is not so full of shock and awe when we consider that He is God, and as per script He would come back to life and go into the glorious existence at the right hand of the Father.

If anyone human is like Jesus he can also go through any passion and rise from death and go to heaven.

Creation, fall, and redemption by the life, passion, death of Jesus, is all a script of God, the Christian God. And since He is God, He could have produced a different script, where there is creation but no need for a redemption because man never goes through any original fall-out with God.

Susma Rio Sep

Thanks my good friend Susma for the question....

The Baha'i view is not identical with the standard Christian view of the need for Christ's deah and atonement. So i am not too sure it's the same script that Christians have...

First we don't believe Christ was God in the same way most Christians do.

We believe that God manifested Himself in Jesus as a way to reach mankind...

We believe Christ was martyred by people who turned away from God and opposed the Cause of God.

We don't believe Christ was physically resurrected from the dead but that His Cause was revived after His crucifixion and that His Spirit was not crucified.

God has sent many Messengers to mankind and many of them were slain and martyred and ignored... We believe Jesus was most certainly one of them.

The teachings that Jesus brought were for the upliftment and refinement of mankind to new spiritual heights and we believe He foretold the Manifestations of God to come after Him.

- Art

[Susma Rio Sep]

Well, good confreres of Baha'i, I appreciate your patience and attention to dialogue with me.

Maybe I will not be able to see some people experience the same kind of perplexity and resulting conclusion I have about God's nature and man's lot.

Anyway, if God being the big boss that He is wants to write script with some guys given the lot of chamber pots and a guy being Savior and Glorious Son of God, that is all His business.

For my part, I will just continue to contemplate this paradoxical perplexity on His part: the capacity to produce a better world and the existence of a world that is in fact not perfect -- not in my human intelligence.

So, mind my own business and take heed of the actual script as God has written it, and as you being the vessel that He has fashioned, obey punctually and fully, doing the best as He has given you the gifts to do so.

Amen.

Susma Rio Sep

[ABCD1234]

Susma,

Your perplexity about the nature of God brought to mind these quotes:

O CHILDREN OF THE DIVINE AND INVISIBLE ESSENCE!

Ye shall be hindered from loving Me and souls shall be perturbed as they make mention of Me. For minds cannot grasp Me nor hearts contain Me.
--Baha'u'llah

I want to know God's thoughts. . . The rest are details. --Albert Einstein

It can't be a bad thing when you're in the same boat as Mr. Einstein, can it?

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Well, good confreres of Baha'i, I appreciate your patience and attention to dialogue with me.

Maybe I will not be able to see some people experience the same kind of perplexity and resulting conclusion I have about God's nature and man's lot.

Anyway, if God being the big boss that He is wants to write script with some guys given the lot of chamber pots and a guy being Savior and Glorious Son of God, that is all His business.

For my part, I will just continue to contemplate this paradoxical perplexity on His part: the capacity to produce a better world and the existence of a world that is in fact not perfect -- not in my human intelligence.

So, mind my own business and take heed of the actual script as God has written it, and as you being the vessel that He has fashioned, obey punctually and fully, doing the best as He has given you the gifts to do so.

Amen.

Susma Rio Sep

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Well, good confreres of Baha'i, I appreciate your patience and attention to dialogue with me.

Maybe I will not be able to see some people experience the same kind of perplexity and resulting conclusion I have about God's nature and man's lot.

.....
Susma Rio Sep

Thanks Susma my friend... Good to hear from you! I think I've grown to appreciate you more over the past month or so... always feel free to share ideas!

- Art