The Prince of Peace

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by intrepidlover

So that is Dr Steiner's "rendering" of the verse. How quaint. Is his "rendering" actually a valid translation of the Greek, or has he just decided to put a whole different slant on the text to make it fit in with his own viewpoint (read that as AGENDA)?

Hi Friend,
He renders the verse as it was in the original Chaldee. The other translation does not fit in with the rest of Matthew's Gospel.

Matthew was not written in Greek.

Greetings,
Br.Bruce

[intrepidlover]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Hi Friend,
He renders the verse as it was in the original Chaldee. The other translation does not fit in with the rest of Matthew's Gospel.

Matthew was not written in Greek.

Greetings,
Br.Bruce

Yes I understand that Matthew was not written in Greek. Not being a great scholar I was not sure of the original language. Anyhow previous posts on this thread give a quite simple, clear and rational explanation of the statement by Jesus.

A recent discussion on this verse at another website produced the same explanation as well as personal testimonies by persons whose family members became hostile towards them because of their conversion to Christianity.

So Jesus did indeed bring a "sword" which divided people.

You might also care to elaborate on your remark: "The other translation does not fit in with the rest of Matthew's Gospel."

That's a pretty broad and bold statement. I invite you to prove it.

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by intrepidlover

Yes I understand that Matthew was not written in Greek. Not being a great scholar I was not sure of the original language. Anyhow previous posts on this thread give a quite simple, clear and rational explanation of the statement by Jesus.

A recent discussion on this verse at another website produced the same explanation as well as personal testimonies by persons whose family members became hostile towards them because of their conversion to Christianity.

So Jesus did indeed bring a "sword" which divided people.

You might also care to elaborate on your remark: "The other translation does not fit in with the rest of Matthew's Gospel."

That's a pretty broad and bold statement. I invite you to prove it.

Hello Intrepid,
I've already posted on this thread most of the quotes from Matthew which demonstrate the flavour of Christ's message.

I have also discussed the nature of Christ's teaching on the breaking of the blood ties in order to cultivate a greater Love on other threads.

Shalom,
Br.Bruce

[Torchbearer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Not exactly happy families.
Is the line about Christ bringing a sword out of place?


Contrary to this, Matthew later states:

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Matthew 26:52

Moreso than any of the other Gospels, Matthew's is one of non- violence:



So the line about the "Prince of Peace" bringing a sword seems out of place in Matthew.

Uncharacteristically, Dr. Steiner agrees and tells us that this scriptural verse has been completely misquoted; implying the reverse of what was meant.
"I have not come to send peace away from this Earth but to send away
the sword" is Dr. Steiner's rendering of the verse. He then continues:

"Christ entered into the spiritual sphere of Earth-existence in order

gradually to rescue it from elements that bring about discord and

disharmony in mankind. Spiritual Science will establish peace when it

is truly Christian, in the sense of bringing about the unity of

religions. It can unite not only those in regions immediately around

us but can establish peace over the whole Earth, because it

understands the nature of the deed wrought by the greatest Bringer of

peace."

See: The Gospel of Matthew, Rudolf Steiner



-Br.Bruce


"A beautiful saying in this Gospel is usually quite wrongly translated. In its true form the saying is: 'I have not come to send peace away from this Earth but to send away the sword!' The most beautiful message of peace has in the course of time been distorted into its very opposite!"
- the Gospel of Matthew Lecture 12

Torchbearer
I believe that Jesus did say "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" because he goes on to talk about discord among family members. My take on this is that there is discord between family members because not all people in the same family have the same values. Some relate for the enjoyment of relating, while others relate through power play. The former are part of the forces of light, while the latter are a part of the forces of darkness. And a holy war, which would only ever be started by the latter, would still have to be fought and won. The fight in everyday life is in the mind or non-physical realm (the spiritual realm) but if things go horribly wrong then it may come to an actual war. Let's believe that will never happen.
In the second part (live by the sword will die by the sword) in the Greek (and I don't say it was originally written in Greek) it has a different sound or meaning. To say it in English would be if you knife someone you will get it back. My understanding is that Peter acted out of anger and wanted to hit back out of vengeance. That action is aggravating and arouses the other, even if they were the wrong doer to gain permission to act out more violence. I thing there are times when action is needed as in self defence but this is not about self defence but reaction.

[Torchbearer]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Not exactly happy families.
Is the line about Christ bringing a sword out of place?




Contrary to this, Matthew later states:

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Matthew 26:52

Moreso than any of the other Gospels, Matthew's is one of non- violence:



So the line about the "Prince of Peace" bringing a sword seems out of place in Matthew.

Uncharacteristically, Dr. Steiner agrees and tells us that this scriptural verse has been completely misquoted; implying the reverse of what was meant.
"I have not come to send peace away from this Earth but to send away
the sword" is Dr. Steiner's rendering of the verse. He then continues:

"Christ entered into the spiritual sphere of Earth-existence in order

gradually to rescue it from elements that bring about discord and

disharmony in mankind. Spiritual Science will establish peace when it

is truly Christian, in the sense of bringing about the unity of

religions. It can unite not only those in regions immediately around

us but can establish peace over the whole Earth, because it

understands the nature of the deed wrought by the greatest Bringer of

peace."

See: The Gospel of Matthew, Rudolf Steiner



-Br.Bruce


"A beautiful saying in this Gospel is usually quite wrongly translated. In its true form the saying is: 'I have not come to send peace away from this Earth but to send away the sword!' The most beautiful message of peace has in the course of time been distorted into its very opposite!"
- the Gospel of Matthew Lecture 12

Torchbearer
I believe that Jesus did say "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" because he goes on to talk about discord among family members. My take on this is that there is discord between family members because not all people in the same family have the same values. Some relate for the enjoyment of relating, while others relate through power play. The former are part of the forces of light, while the latter are a part of the forces of darkness. And a holy war, which would only ever be started by the latter, would still have to be fought and won. The fight in everyday life is in the mind or non-physical realm (the spiritual realm) but if things go horribly wrong then it may come to an actual war. Let's believe that will never happen.
In the second part (live by the sword will die by the sword) in the Greek (and I don't say it was originally written in Greek) it has a different sound or meaning. To say it in English would be "if you knife someone you will get it back". My understanding is that Peter acted out of anger. He was hitting back out of vengeance. Such action is aggravating and arouses the other, even if that other was the wrong doer, it now gives them permission to act out more violence. I thing there are times when action is needed as in self defence but this is not about self defence but reaction.

[mee]

World Government on the Shoulder of the Prince of Peace
Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace"
True Peace and Security in the Restored Paradise
Hail the Prince of Peace
The Rule of the "Prince of Peace" Amid Enemies
The One Who Can Bring Peace
DOES the fact that humans cannot bring peace mean that we will never see peace? No

How will Jesus lead mankind to peace? You may be surprised to know that he has already started. In the prophetic book of Revelation, Jesus is seen receiving from God kingship in a heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 11:15) If we closely examine the Bible’s prophecies and compare them with events in our century, we see that Jesus’ enthronement as King took place in heaven back in 1914. (Matthew 24:3-42) That was a major step in bringing peace to the earth.
Before it is, though, the Prince of Peace makes further vital preparations for peace. To begin with, mankind has to know of God’s purpose to bring peace through Christ
Then, righthearted ones have to be educated in the ways of peace. The Bible promises: "All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace of your sons will be abundant." (Isaiah 54:13) Millions of righthearted ones are receiving this education even now.
It is now almost time for another decisive step in the peace-making process. What is that? One that many know by name but of which few know the real purpose. The Bible calls it "the war of the great day of God the Almighty," or Armageddon. (Revelation 16:14, 16) Many think of Armageddon as a nuclear war that will destroy civilization. On the contrary, it is a direct act by Jesus, the Prince of Peace, to accomplish things that are vital to peace. its all been happening in the last days .
When will Armageddon come? The Bible does not say. But world events in fulfillment of prophecy indicate that it will be very soon.

Even today, those subjecting themselves to the rule of the "Prince of Peace" have ‘beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears.’ (Isaiah 2:2-4)

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by intrepidlover

Yes I understand that Matthew was not written in Greek. Not being a great scholar I was not sure of the original language. Anyhow previous posts on this thread give a quite simple, clear and rational explanation of the statement by Jesus.

A recent discussion on this verse at another website produced the same explanation as well as personal testimonies by persons whose family members became hostile towards them because of their conversion to Christianity.

So Jesus did indeed bring a "sword" which divided people.

You might also care to elaborate on your remark: "The other translation does not fit in with the rest of Matthew's Gospel."

That's a pretty broad and bold statement. I invite you to prove it.

Book of Kells - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I would also gently remind that the early Celts did not translate the verse the way it stands today:

However rather than “gladium” which means “sword”, Kells has “gaudium” meaning “joy”. Rendering the verse in translation: “I came not [only] to send peace, but joy”.

Your Br.Bruce

[intrepidlover]

Originally Posted by mee

Before it is, though, the Prince of Peace makes further vital preparations for peace. To begin with, mankind has to know of God’s purpose to bring peace through Christ
Then, righthearted ones have to be educated in the ways of peace. The Bible promises: "All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace of your sons will be abundant." (Isaiah 54:13) Millions of righthearted ones are receiving this education even now.
It is now almost time for another decisive step in the peace-making process. What is that? One that many know by name but of which few know the real purpose. The Bible calls it "the war of the great day of God the Almighty," or Armageddon. (Revelation 16:14, 16) Many think of Armageddon as a nuclear war that will destroy civilization. On the contrary, it is a direct act by Jesus, the Prince of Peace, to accomplish things that are vital to peace. its all been happening in the last days .
When will Armageddon come? The Bible does not say. But world events in fulfillment of prophecy indicate that it will be very soon.

Even today, those subjecting themselves to the rule of the "Prince of Peace" have ‘beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears.’ (Isaiah 2:2-4)

That is most interesting because when I posted such a scenario on the Christian website which I have just left, I was blasted and told that this is what the anti-Christ would say.

[mee]

Originally Posted by intrepidlover

That is most interesting because when I posted such a scenario on the Christian website which I have just left, I was blasted and told that this is what the anti-Christ would say.

maybe they are not inline with the prince of peace Jesus christ. there are many anti-christs .

Antichrist

Definition: Antichrist means against or instead of Christ. The term applies to all who deny what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, all who oppose his Kingdom, and all who mistreat his followers. It also includes individuals, organizations, and nations that falsely claim to represent Christ or that improperly ascribe to themselves the role of Messiah.

[mee]

Originally Posted by intrepidlover

That is most interesting because when I posted such a scenario on the Christian website which I have just left, I was blasted and told that this is what the anti-Christ would say.

they are without true knowledge it seems

[mee]

There has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)


Besides everlasting life, man also needs peace, both with God and with his fellowman. Even today, those subjecting themselves to the rule of the "Prince of Peace" have ‘beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears.’ (Isaiah 2:2-4)



In exercising his authority as the Prince of Peace, Jesus will not resort to tyrannical means. His subjects will not be stripped of their free will and subjugated by force. Rather, all that he will accomplish will be "by means of justice and by means of righteousness." What a refreshing change!