The 'problem' of universalism

[taijasi]

lol ... well, okay, that sounds a bit doom & gloomy to me, but I suppose a snake swallowing its own tail could be thus imagined.

I was thinking more along the lines of the overview from Wiki:

"The symbol is generally thought to represent the cyclical nature of things, eternal return and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end. In some representations the serpent is shown as half light and half dark, echoing symbols such as the Yin Yang, which illustrates the dual nature of all things, but more importantly, that these opposites are not in conflict."

And ...

"a symbol of the eternal unity of all things, the cycle of birth and death from which the alchemist sought release and liberation" (under, Alchemy, on the same page)

But indeed, there are many meanings ascribed to this symbol ...

andrew

[_Z_]

The ouroborus is a symbol of rebirth i thought, and continues forever. In druidry the female adder consumes the male and then gives birth to it, representing the eternal womb of the goddess by which arises the birth of all things, then all is consumed and brought back to the original self.

"your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods,"
Genesis 3:5


why is this a deception? We begin in ignorance and innocence eventually arriving at the place of 'all-knowledge' beyond the veil. It is the circle of 'awen' i.e. First there is the ultimate nature and absolute simplicity which takes two directions that of all-knowlegde [the left hand path] and as all things have there equal and opposite the other direction is all-ignorant, so the jeorney of the soul begins going through its reincarnate manifestations until returning by the right hand path to wisdom. Such is the circle of life.

[_Z_]

sorry to double post

I just looked through this thread, sounds like fun!
Hello bandit,

universalism is wrong because it is dishonest to all religions

it includes all wisdoms and truths or else it would not be universal. In what way is it dishonest? Because it doesn't agree or disagree with any particular religion?

the pearl of truth is only relevant within that particular religion. therefore universalism must be rejected because it is a strawman.

The truth is naked! Unless you wish to describe exactly what that pearl of truth is? Is Christianity the only holder of truth then? So all other religions are false because they don't have Jesus!


I agree with taijasi on this one.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by _Z_

sorry to double post

I just looked through this thread, sounds like fun!
Hello bandit,



it includes all wisdoms and truths or else it would not be universal. In what way is it dishonest? Because it doesn't agree or disagree with any particular religion?





The truth is naked! Unless you wish to describe exactly what that pearl of truth is? Is Christianity the only holder of truth then? So all other religions are false because they don't have Jesus!


I agree with taijasi on this one.

hello Z

rather, why dont you explain how Jesus fits into this 'universal religion'. so far the thread shows how Jesus is excluded from the universal religion & it also shows how the hindu religion is not compatible either.
IN CHRISTIANITY- Jesus & the blood is that pearl & that pearl is appearantly rejected in the Universal religion.
if you read the original post you will see why all these religions do not fit into the universal religion.

i want to know why the blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sin is rejected & not included in the universal religion? explain please
i already know why other religons exclude it, but since this universal religon is supposed to be different & inlcusive of all beliefs & all truth & in my belief Jesus is truth & wisdom -
start EXPLAINING why my beliefs are left out of this universal religion!

[_Z_]

hi again bandit - was that a pretend smile? or have you forgiven me for my christmass story that i unfortunately thought was funny.

Hmm interesting but exclusivist, if jesus is the pearl then non christians are all liars or at least believe in falsehood – sound familiar! A buddhist or hindu would usually say that jesus was a bodhisattva or something like [ i cant really talk for them], so there is a universal jesus in that he represents an architype that we may rise to [although he would probably tread on my hands as I climb the ladder {nah he wouldnt would he}].
In another way, if jesus is really 'the' son of 'the' god then all other religions are ways in which god showed us truth - yes, and as god is jesus [trinity n all that] then they were jesus's truths right up unltil he arrived here. Just a thought.
Having said all this, i think we reached the conclusion before that a universal religion could not include philosophies that were not themselves universal. Personnaly i only believe in having a universal approach whist keeping my individual belief system/s. We could debate the pearl more but you might smack my bottom hard if i did it again!


Sin is another great idea for a topic, as i believe we were born innocent and the wrongness of the world is in the world not us – perhaps? I must say as a druid i am most grateful to jesus and christians generally for getting rid of human sacrifice amongst other things! shame they carried it on though - the burnings - i dont think that was the idea eh!
Hmm thinking about it, perhaps you could have jesus's remission of sins in a universal religion! Add to it the teaching of the buddha concerning duality etc etc. can we all learn something from one another and there are many truths, what jesus done was great as too what others have done. even if neither krishna the buddha mohamed nor jesus says a given truth it doesnt mean it is not truth - i think this is one of the underpinning arguments of universalism, when you add all this together.


Not that i care about universalism any more, i am quite happy to just be a pagan druid now.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by _Z_

hi again bandit - was that a pretend smile? or have you forgiven me for my christmass story that i unfortunately thought was funny.

Hmm interesting but exclusivist, if jesus is the pearl then non christians are all liars or at least believe in falsehood – sound familiar! A buddhist or hindu would usually say that jesus was a bodhisattva or something like [ i cant really talk for them], so there is a universal jesus in that he represents an architype that we may rise to [although he would probably tread on my hands as I climb the ladder {nah he wouldnt would he}].
In another way, if jesus is really 'the' son of 'the' god then all other religions are ways in which god showed us truth - yes, and as god is jesus [trinity n all that] then they were jesus's truths right up unltil he arrived here. Just a thought.
Having said all this, i think we reached the conclusion before that a universal religion could not include philosophies that were not themselves universal. Personnaly i only believe in having a universal approach whist keeping my individual belief system/s. We could debate the pearl more but you might smack my bottom hard if i did it again!


Sin is another great idea for a topic, as i believe we were born innocent and the wrongness of the world is in the world not us – perhaps? I must say as a druid i am most grateful to jesus and christians generally for getting rid of human sacrifice amongst other things! shame they carried it on though - the burnings - i dont think that was the idea eh!
Hmm thinking about it, perhaps you could have jesus's remission of sins in a universal religion! Add to it the teaching of the buddha concerning duality etc etc. can we all learn something from one another and there are many truths, what jesus done was great as too what others have done. even if neither krishna the buddha mohamed nor jesus says a given truth it doesnt mean it is not truth - i think this is one of the underpinning arguments of universalism, when you add all this together.


Not that i care about universalism any more, i am quite happy to just be a pagan druid now.

i already know you do not like Jesus & the bible & it appears you are someone who bleievs he has no sin. correct? if so, how did you become so perfect & so much better than my imperfectness?
please do not put the blame on me or others for the past hitler regimes.

that is not the point here.

i said IN CHRISITIANITY Jesus & the blood of Jesus for remission of sins is the pearl & in Christianity Jesus is the truth. i did not say anything about son of God or trinity so why are you?

you still did not answer why my personal beliefs are rejected in the universal religion.

allow me to explain for you .

to date i have not met one person in the universal religion in my life who wants anything whatsoever to do with the blood of Jesus Christ for remission of sins & i believe the blood of Jesus Christ is the truth also. from my research so far- moses & mohammed are also rejected in the Universal Religion. thus they are claiming THE uNIVERSAL rELIGION is the NEW CHRISTIANITY.
bah humbug. i also did not say anything about your Christmas story so i dont know why that has anything to do with this.

Universal Religion = Cuckoo Bird - Koo Koo Bird.

Do you know what the Cuckoo (koo koo) bird does?
the koo koo bird goes around to all the nests of the other small birds & EATS the eggs from the mothers. then the koo koo bird lays her own eggs in the nest. the mothers of other species come back to the nest & are not aware that their eggs have been silently removed & destroyed. these other birds end up rasing a koo koo bird instead of their own babies. not only that, but the first koo koo bird to hatch, kicks out & pushes out all the other koo koo bird eggs & the mother is left raising a bird that is 4 times her own size & that does not even belong to her & she does not know what happened.

oddly enough, every person i have heard who claims the universal koo koo bird religion not only excludes the religious beliefs of others, but they themselves do not agree on what the universal religion should include. what i have noticed is it is an attempt to remove many other beliefs by replacing them with koo koo bird eggs.


i spent a good three hours looking at the Universal religion. it is not a religion. it is a Cuckoo Bird, set out to rid of other peoples beliefs, starting with Jesus Christ, the blood of Jesus Christ & the Bible - then work its way into the nest of all the other birds to steal their eggs!

[_Z_]

IC


i didn't say i am sinless as i am not by any stretch of the imagination. Universalists are koo koo are they? Or all accepting?


A world without religion would be a safer place, so good luck koo koo's


3 hours! Try 20 years and you may understand rather than arguing irrationally, yet you still insist on jesus being the saviour of all and the pearl, the rest of the universe are damned sinners then.


I think the Hebrew belief system is infantile, ridiculous, demonising dualistic blah blah - silly isnt it [what i just said]
i think this thread was set up for all the wrong reasons and you know what they are!


ok i give in bye.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by _Z_

IC


i didn't say i am sinless as i am not by any stretch of the imagination. Universalists are koo koo are they? Or all accepting?


A world without religion would be a safer place, so good luck koo koo's


3 hours! Try 20 years and you may understand rather than arguing irrationally, yet you still insist on jesus being the saviour of all and the pearl, the rest of the universe are damned sinners then.


I think the Hebrew belief system is infantile, ridiculous, demonising dualistic blah blah - silly isnt it [what i just said]
i think this thread was set up for all the wrong reasons and you know what they are!


ok i give in bye.

exactly what i thought. christians are not allowed to believe in Jesus just because you dont. so you call my beliefs, for me, ridiculous, silly & demonising.

we are supposed to respect your beliefs but you continue to show complete disrespect for mine.
respect for each others beliefs is what would make the world a safer place & the koo koo religion dont cut it.

i think this thread was started for all the right reasons & it sure put the universal religion into persepective.

[taijasi]

Bandit,

Can you provide any links, if there are websites, or perhaps book titles, or authors ... or even other posts on CR, if there are any ... as examples of the Universal Religion you're talking about?

I may be confused, but it sounds like you're making a reference to something very specific ... and I'm not sure what it is. Please say more about what you've checked out.

Thanks,

andrew

[Bandit]

here are some of them. it is a cuckoo bird if i ever saw one. it aint about tolerance, respect & acceptance. it is about taking away my beliefs in Jesus the bible & the blood of Christ. they say they are all the same, but my beliefs are excluded.

Concept of Universal Religion

Universal Religion

Universal Religion

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

From Prof. Wolfgang Smith (who states the position better than I):
The problem with the TU doctrine, then, is that it is prone to be misunderstood. A Promethean temptation befalls us, an overweening desire to lay claim to an understanding which by right is proper to God. We have had occasion to see – with horror! – where this can lead.

Reading this thread, then returning to the (outstanding) OP, I think that we see an example of this "overweening desire."

Bandit, I see your point and while I would not phrase it exactly the same way, I agree with what you are saying. It is again the problem of making everything relative so nothing is meaningful.

peace,
lunamoth

[taijasi]

Bandit,

If I may borrow from the last of the three links you shared, here's a bit from the very bottom of that page:

Universal Religion
The belief that, since all is God, then only one reality exists, and all religions are simply different paths to that ultimate reality. The universal religion can be visualized as a mountain, with many spiritual paths to the summit. Some are hard; others easy. There is no one correct path. All paths eventually reach the top. Believers anticipate that a new universal religion which contains elements of all faiths will evolve and become generally accepted worldwide.

Okay, now this is exactly what I believe. Could someone please explain why there is anything in the least bit offensive, intolerant, exclusive, or smug about such a notion? I am utterly dismayed and have obviously completely missed the argument. I will say this, however. I am practicing the utmost of patience ... as I sit and wonder, what I might have missed!

If necessary, please hone in on any one (or two, perhaps) of the above statements which doesn't ring true. Or more specifically, which is "offensive, intolerant, exclusive, or smug" as I say above.

Thank you!

andrew

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Bandit,

If I may borrow from the last of the three links you shared, here's a bit from the very bottom of that page:


If necessary, please hone in on any one (or two, perhaps) of the above statements which doesn't ring true. Or more specifically, which is "offensive, intolerant, exclusive, or smug" as I say above.

Thank you!

andrew

sorry if you aren't seeing what i am seeing, Andrew

the very statement you posted from that site does not even fit or include all the religions. you might be able to start with a million paths at the bottom of the mountain, but when you get to the tippy top there is only going to be one path. there is one for you.
i dont think all is God is going set real well with the buddha or the athiest or polytheism, but you may be able to squeeze that one in for the agnostic religion. there is two for you.
it will be interesting to see how they include the KKK, the skinhead religion & white power religion into the universal religion.

no one is going to swap out my sparrow eggs for the cuckoo bird eggs but thanks any way.
i have pretty much said all i need to say & am not real interested in the religious doctrine in the universal religion.
everyone should be allowed to believe the way they want to believe & be respected & still be loved for it. other peoples beliefs (eggs) are just as precious to them as my beliefs (eggs) are to me.

it was real eye opener for me- Thanks Thomas .

[taijasi]

My only frustration ... is that after much effort, things just still don't seem to be clear. I guess I'll just hafta shrug my shoulders on this one, though.

I could only add, that if anyone is actually misguided enough to believe ... that race hatred or white supremacy is in any way religious ... then they deserve what they get. Ultimately, though, even the evils of such separative practices (or any separatism) reveals the truth (imo) of the statement I quoted:

"Some are hard; others easy. ... All paths eventually reach the top."

Indeed, choosing the path of hatred and bigotry will not prove an easy path, and it will delay the soul considerably ... but these become part of the lessons learned, and one day, I trust such hatred will be overcome. After all, so much, has already been done in that direction.

And once we reach the top, all paths having merged into one path, then yes, I agree, there is but One Way. I have said nothing different than what you just said, Bandit. Interesting ... We can agree, or agree to disagree, really makes no difference to me!

peace,

andrew

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

My only frustration ... is that after much effort, things just still don't seem to be clear. I guess I'll just hafta shrug my shoulders on this one, though.

you dont see it because your belief has not been removed in the universal doctrine (not yet any way). not only has my belief been excluded & removed, it was never even offered as an option.
it reminds me of the mimic octopus with one problem- the one belief it can't mimic is the belief in Jesus & the bible.