the prophet elijah

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Which brings up another evidence against reincarnation; how come everybody was a king or great warrior, and no one is ever the return of the guy who mucked out the stables?

Regards,
Scott

i stand neutral with it. i dont see it as an absolute doctrine either way because i cant see for sure where the scriptures make it perfectly clear all the way through. i know some who feel they were here before & were just ordinary people & i do my best to try to understand that particular individual because i dont like to discredit another persons experience, especially if i can learn something from them, and i know it does not feel good when my experiences are discredited.

some people really truly feel they were here before & some people make it seem like they are off in la la land, like you say a great king with imagination or whatever.

i think it is one of those things better not to make an issue. at the same time the ones who tell us we just recycle forever & we make these choices on our own to come back & create ourselves, or turn into cows, outwits God & that is when i have think differently.

i think a lot of people do use reincarnation to try & bypass God & judgment, but we can't.
i just see it as a possiblity for some, if God has a purpose for doing that & God is the one who will do it, not us.
this of course my simple opinion.

thanks for the chat, Scott

[Arizona]

What about incarnanation as opposed to reincarnation? I think the bible does support Elisha? carnating agian. Another point that is made a lot is that it is appointed for man once to live and then the judgement. What if this simply means that when we die in the physical we are examined for that life. Another verse that is brought up is as a tree falleth so shall it lay. It may be that this means that once we die in the physical our state and behaviors as such dont change into something that we didnt accomplish while alive. No magic wand for example. It may mean that our lives are examined and what we learned or received in life pertaining to our hearts doesnt change without our participation. If we die in the physical with a bitter heart and attitude so shall it be when we are examined and that doesnt change without our participation and choices to desire to be more loving and caring. But does this mean that we are not incarnated again. Does receiving Jesus for example mean that we say we believe He is the Son of God or does it mean that we receive His nature? What if receiving Jesus means we receive His nature by participating in the desire to love one another. What if anyone who does fulfill the commandment of love God with all your heart and love your brother as yourself does receive Him, or, anyone who receives love does receive Him. How many people then have received Him because they chose love whether they know biblical doctrin or not or had the bible available or any book for that matter or could read english. Can not reading the bible or having the bible prevent the Word of God or His voice in our hearts. His living speaking spirit that was poured out on all flesh is His Word that is made flesh in us. His voice.

But to reiterate is there a difference between reincarnation and incarnation?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Arizona

But to reiterate is there a difference between reincarnation and incarnation?

i think we receive both- love & the Son of God when we believe & receive Jesus.

elisha & elijah, the transfiguration is all confusing for me, so i dont know.
i dont see any difference in incarnate or reincarnate. the bible does not use either one that i know of. or does it?
i just seems like 'in' is more like the first time & 're' just shows it happened before or happened again.

my aunt has a belief that the antichrist will be the literal devil who incarnates into a man, the same way some believe God incarnates into a man.
fortunately i go to a church where people are allowed to believe what they see by researching & studying for themselves. so it is interesting for sure when you talk to them because the answer often comes back as multiple choice.


nice post Arizona, on receiving Jesus, receiving love & receiving the love of Jesus.

[Arizona]

Thanks Bandid. Im not really all that knowledgable about the two but I dont have a problem with incarnation. I had a mind changing experience once about pre-existance and so I dont think being incarnated on more than one occation is a far strech. I think the difference between reincarnation and incarnation is that incarnation does not involve being something else or something other than what we have participated in. I think reincarnations is when the individual becomes soomething different in nature for example. For example, if I were to incarnate again I would still be me but with reincarnation I think it means I could come back and be someone or something else not already a part of my identity or person that I have not already grown and participated in. This means physically also. For example I could come back as a cow or some other animal. Incarnation just means that we come back as we are. Not that I am an expert or anything.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Arizona

Thanks Bandid. Im not really all that knowledgable about the two but I dont have a problem with incarnation. I had a mind changing experience once about pre-existance and so I dont think being incarnated on more than one occation is a far strech. I think the difference between reincarnation and incarnation is that incarnation does not involve being something else or something other than what we have participated in. I think reincarnations is when the individual becomes soomething different in nature for example. For example, if I were to incarnate again I would still be me but with reincarnation I think it means I could come back and be someone or something else not already a part of my identity or person that I have not already grown and participated in. This means physically also. For example I could come back as a cow or some other animal. Incarnation just means that we come back as we are. Not that I am an expert or anything.

you used to be a cow? (teasing)

i think you will always be you no matter what.

i see what you are saying but when people start talking cows & butterflies that goes over the edge for me for what the scriptures are trying to say. i just dont think that is what God does because people are different than all the rest of the creation.
i am not an expert either but what if this time for us is the only time for us & we go back to God? see that is the thing about it if we are not careful. we end up with all these thoughts & that is why i dont think i am reincarnated or that i will ever be coming back & i dont want to come back. i want to be sure in this life & what i long for is the same as Faithfulservant, is to live forever with the Lord in His eternal rest.

can anyone explain exactly what happened at the transfiguration with Moses & Jesus? everytime this comes up I expect to fully understand it, but i always go away still wondering.

[Arizona]

Hi Bandit,

Can you explain to me what you know about the Transfiguration? What you have been shown and what is typically taught about it.

Thanks !

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Arizona

Hi Bandit,

Can you explain to me what you know about the Transfiguration? What you have been shown and what is typically taught about it.

Thanks !

honestly, i dont understand it at all. vision, merging of spirits, it seems to me like God lifted the vail from their eyes & let them see the spirit of Jesus beyond the flesh...the array of Gods glory & power. i dont know.
then i consider how eternal life & immortality was never understood in those days, the way wee see it today with the scriptures & the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, because the OT does not say a lot about eternal life.
i read it, i hear people talk about it but there is always something missing. one thing for sure- it was real.
it has been about a year since we talked about that here so maybe some others can explain what they see.

then i consider who was allowed to see it? peter, james & john.
if anyone wants to put up that passage for discussion again, that would be cool.

[Quahom1]

It is interesting to note, that once again there is a conflict here concerning a supposedly dead person being both in the etheral world and alive here on earth at the same time.


How could Elijah be with Moses, and yet John the Baptist be here on earth (still alive at the time), in the vision of transfiguration the author (in this case Matthew) writes about?
John the Baptist stated emphatically that he was not Elijah. Amnesia?

Second, if John the Baptist were "Elijah", then he would know Jesus personally, and would not have asked from his prison cell, if Jesus was the one to come (the promised one). He would have had no doubt. All he knew was that Jesus was his cousin, and a prophet, and preacher.

Third, John would not have feared death (since he would know the place he was going back to in the after life). But he did fear death.

Finally, we are told that every man is appointed to die once. So Reincarnation can go out the window. Unless there are a bunch of immortals out there in the world in new bodies...


Things that make you go Hmmmm...

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It is interesting to note, that once again there is a conflict here concerning a supposedly dead person being both in the etheral world and alive here on earth at the same time.


How could Elijah be with Moses, and yet John the Baptist be here on earth (still alive at the time), in the vision of transfiguration the author (in this case Matthew) writes about?
John the Baptist stated emphatically that he was not Elijah. Amnesia?

Second, if John the Baptist were "Elijah", then he would know Jesus personally, and would not have asked from his prison cell, if Jesus was the one to come (the promised one). He would have had no doubt. All he knew was that Jesus was his cousin, and a prophet, and preacher.

Third, John would not have feared death (since he would know the place he was going back to in the after life). But he did fear death.

Finally, we are told that every man is appointed to die once. So Reincarnation can go out the window. Unless there are a bunch of immortals out there in the world in new bodies...


Things that make you go Hmmmm...

v/r

Q

as far as the conflict here, I agree there is one, or there appears to be one & that is why it never made sense to me. if you look at what JTB says, then see what they say in Matt 17, it seems Jesus is referencing himself with JTB & drawing a parallel with Elijah so they would know that he was going to be put to death also. yet Jesus is saying Elijah shall first come & restore all things then he says Elijah has already come. JTB was beheaded in Matt 14.
but the writer concludes the disciples understood it to be JTB.

I think JTB knew Jesus is the Son of God & i think that happened at Jordan, but JTB was also filled with Holy Ghost from birth & this is prior to the Holy Ghost being poured out at Pentecost which i feel he needed in order to recognise Jesus is the Messiah... yet like you say being in prison & not being able to see what was going on, he had doubt, like we all do at times, because he was human & yes he did say he was not Elijah.

i dont think there is a conflict in the scriptures, rather a conflict in understanding.

Matt. 17
17:10And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
17:11And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
17:12But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
17:13Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Here are the cross references in the gospels, but not limited to just these passages alone.

Mark 9:2-13
Luke 9:28-36

[Thomas]

This has strayed a bit - but a couple of points:

Transfiguration - Moses and Eliah represent the Letter and the Spirit, the Law and the Prophets, Transcendance and Immanence, Apophatic and Kataphatic experience ...

Standing alongside Christ, who is their Logos and Principle, signifies (among other things) the resolution of all duality in Trinity (Unity).

Again, it is the fulfillment of the Law and Prophecy in Christ.

Reincarnation - the notion of reincarnation does not and can not 'fit' in any Judeo/Christian/Moslem anthropomorphism - it just confounds itself in too many contradictions - any attempt to introduce the subject is invariably a popular borrowing from the Asiatic traditions in which the 'person' - be it man or God - is itself without any substantial reality.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam hinge on the notion of a Personal God, and a personal relationship between the two. Reincarnation renders all of this a nonsense, unless 'the person' is by nature schizophrenic.

To fully understand this requires a knowledge of 'being' founded on Scripture and developed through theology - such as the notion and meaning of 'hypostasis', etc.

Thomas

[Thomas]

A Biblical understanding of vision, from the Greek:

1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

It's worth noting that in the post Resurrection appearances of Jesus, he ate with his friends - perhaps so as to demonstrate he was not a ghost/vision/chimera ...

Thomas

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Reincarnation - the notion of reincarnation does not and can not 'fit' in any Judeo/Christian/Moslem anthropomorphism - it just confounds itself in too many contradictions - any attempt to introduce the subject is invariably a popular borrowing from the Asiatic traditions in which the 'person' - be it man or God - is itself without any substantial reality.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam hinge on the notion of a Personal God, and a personal relationship between the two. Reincarnation renders all of this a nonsense, unless 'the person' is by nature schizophrenic.


Thomas

then how do you resolve incarnation? or is it ok to use that word which i also do not see in the scriptures, but not reincarnation?
if we believe God turned into a man once, are we saying that it is no way possible for him to do that again?

& what do you tell those few who honestly believe & feel they have been reincarnated? i mean just call them liars, ritards & sick individuals or what?

i am sorry but i do not see enough in the scriptures to support a yes or no absolute doctrine on it. what i am seeing are opinions & interpretations.
while i agree the asian dogma is at the same odds because the scripture does not support that either.

OTH- i suppose if the scripture reads it is appointed unto man to die ONLY once with a second witness for it, then we have something. i know man can die twice because there is a second death & that is the spirit of man.

how do you support the return of the prophet Elijah? because he did not die a natural death?

& who are the two prophets there in revelations? if we say one is elijah, would he not have to come through the womb of a woman?
or what?, you tell me.

how do explain this from Jesus:
this is twice Jesus says the same thing about JTB

11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
11:8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

thanks in advance Thomas.

[Thomas]

Hi Bandit -

then how do you resolve incarnation? or is it ok to use that word which I also do not see in the scriptures, but not reincarnation?

The Incarnation means precise that God took on human form - 'that God became man,' as the Fathers have it, 'that man might come to God'.

Reincarnation, in popular terms, means that a given soul discards a body and assumes another one. So one soul can have numerous lives, and numerous bodies. This presents major problems.

In the Jewish Tradition, and subsequently in the Christian, the body is not an empty vesel that the soul occupies (as the Greeks had it) the body is the presence of the soul in the material or physical world, if there is no body, there is no presence, and if there is no presence there is no body.

Only Christianity views this as a profoundly positive trait - only God and man partake of the whole order of creation - in man there is the mineral, vegetable, animal, human, angelic and the divine present in a dynamic union which has the unique name 'human' which is why we are potentially higher than the angels, but lesser in the sense that angelic beings are fully manifest (perfect) in themselves.

The Catholic Church, for example, has never issued a statement of faith regarding reincarnation, because the notion is so utterly alien to Christianity that it is a needless discussion.

[I]if we believe God turned into a man once, are we saying that it is no way possible for him to do that again?[I]

Nothing is impossible, but the question is why? Everything that needed to be done was accomplished in Christ. Another 'incarnation' would be superfluous.

[I]& what do you tell those few who honestly believe & feel they have been reincarnated? i mean just call them liars, ritards & sick individuals or what?[I]

Cannot say without knowledge, but there is a broad range of possibility.
They might well be liars, more likely they are simply deluding themselves - there is much research into false and aquired memory syndrome.

There is also the law of like goes to like. There are psychic influences out there which we are all subject to, and some more than others. It is entirely possible for a set of memories (all that remains of a person) to attach themselves to a person so that the person thinks they are his own memories, much in the same way that certain places can determine how you act within them.

Any confidence trickster will show you how he can make you think what he wants you to think, and furthermore make you think you thought it, we are highly suggestible creatures. So no, I would not say liar, nor necessarily ill, nor stupid. But I would employ reason.

i am sorry but I do not see enough in the scriptures to support a yes or no

You have to look at the whole picture.

I'll return later - I must go now.

Thomas

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Bandit -


You have to look at the whole picture.

I'll return later - I must go now.

Thomas

i am looking at the whole picture as well as all Three sides & have been looking at the whole picture for 40 years... but it seems i am only getting opinion & traditional church dogma & not scriptures for it & when that happens i have to say so.

i feel Jesus is trying to show something here, but the traditions of men are not allowing it. what that is, i am not sure about but i know there is more to it than a cut & dry explanation & nailing the casket closed.
i am not too proud or bias to say I dont have all the answers, if that means allowing to farther my understanding at some later time in my life.

There is also the law of like goes to like. There are psychic influences out there which we are all subject to, and some more than others. It is entirely possible for a set of memories (all that remains of a person) to attach themselves to a person so that the person thinks they are his own memories, much in the same way that certain places can determine how you act within them.

Any confidence trickster will show you how he can make you think what he wants you to think, and furthermore make you think you thought it, we are highly suggestible creatures. So no, I would not say liar, nor necessarily ill, nor stupid. But I would employ reason.

yes i am very aware of these things & i know very well when i see it, but i dont think that has anything to do with elijah, JTB & what Jesus is trying to say here.



it is ok Thomas, you dont need to explain any farther & thanks for trying.

[Thomas]

"And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Luke 1:17

The Jews followed a Prophetic Tradition, but the voice that spoke to Abraham and Moses is the same voice that speaks 'upon the tongues of the prophets' and it is the Holy Spirit.

Thus Jesus speaks of John not as the reincarnation of Elijah, but someone who performs the same function, as a vehicle of the Spirit, to 'make straight the way of the Lord' - to the Jews John is an 'Elijahan' because he follows in the line of the Prophets, but Christ knows better because John does not simply prophecy, he is witness to the coming of the Messiah.

Thus Jesus calls on John to baptise him, and in so doing renders baptism a Sacramental rather than a simply liturgical action - something only God can do - and John knows that what Jesus is asking is beyond him, but it is in the Gift of the Son that the Forerunner is empowered - it is an honour bestowed upon John (as is baptism upon us all) which we can do nothing to deserve - and it also caps and crowns the whole Prophetic Tradition.

As I write this I cannot express the pride and humility that John must have felt, that he should be chosen to annoint the Son of God.

Nor can I express, succinctly, what this action establishes - there are two sacraments of the Early Church - Baptism and the Eucharist - Christ alone can effect them, but it was his gift to John and to Israel to allow the last in the Office of Elijah (the first to know him, for John leapt as a child in his mother's womb when Mary visited Elizabeth) to enact the former.

Thomas