The proplem with God (Hell and free will) - Page 2

Azure24 · 07-20-2006, 09:57 PM

Heres my opinion of God(though this maybe contradicting the bible a liitle):
I personally think that in way he isn't completely a personal God. I think after creating the universe, God is probably in a state of meditation subconsciously in watch of the universe and because of the afterlife and God's superority over things i think there is very little that will attract Gods attention. I think that God is a little... emotionless and basically doesn't intervene with human affairs unless it is important. Also personally i think God is Omnibenevolent (all loving) but more in a strict way because i do think helping people too much makes them weaker like less self reliant in a way, for example i for one do not believe in 'divine intervention'. God does not save one and leave another to die, God's children are the mentally strong, ones that when they pray, they pray for other people not themselves (hence other people will pray for them and visa-versa). Since God is the maker of all things, God never feels threatened or takes action against wrongs that occur(unless it endangers all of mankind) since there is nothing he cannot handle. For example would you feel that bothered if you killed an insect, some would but you know what i mean (no disrespect to us humans though).

cavalier · 07-20-2006, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure24

Heres my opinion of God(though this maybe contradicting the bible a liitle):
I personally think that in way he isn't completely a personal God. I think after creating the universe, God is probably in a state of meditation subconsciously in watch of the universe and because of the afterlife and God's superority over things i think there is very little that will attract Gods attention. I think that God is a little... emotionless and basically doesn't intervene with human affairs unless it is important. Also personally i think God is Omnibenevolent (all loving) but more in a strict way because i do think helping people too much makes them weaker like less self reliant in a way, for example i for one do not believe in 'divine intervention'. God does not save one and leave another to die, God's children are the mentally strong, ones that when they pray, they pray for other people not themselves (hence other people will pray for them and visa-versa). Since God is the maker of all things, God never feels threatened or takes action against wrongs that occur(unless it endangers all of mankind) since there is nothing he cannot handle. For example would you feel that bothered if you killed an insect, some would but you know what i mean (no disrespect to us humans though).

I guess I'm curious as to why you believe this about God.
I could be wrong, my apologies if I am, but this just seems to be you making God in the image of what you want things to be.

Azure24 · 07-21-2006, 02:08 AM

Its not what i want its what i think (thats what i said right?), thats all. Truth is no one does, other than whats said in the bible right?
What do you thibk does God interfere with human affairs? I see life as a test, resulting with either a past or fail. Why does God need to help us physically? Evils occur yet nothing happens, some decent people suffer while some less considerate experience the other. There are so many questions (yes the Bible has some) but there are many others and few answers so i come up with my own.

17th Angel · 10-24-2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure24

I was thinking to myself, if god loves everyone and knows everything and is all powerful. Why then if God knows the future, will he create a sould knowing it would go to Hell? Why does hell exist if we do certain bad things in our lives (which most peoples lives is up to 80 approximately years) then why should someone suffer for enternity? Is that fair? If God is all powerful one does he not destroy evil? Is there a reason? Do Islam/christians/jews really belive that if someone is not a follower of their religion they would go to hell? Is that fair? If someone is bought up around people who aren't religious and does not interact with people who are religious will he go to hell? What about people who die before they are born? I am religious but sometimes i have my doubt?

When I was learning of Christianity before I renounced it... Anyway that's a story for some other time... I learnt that god, didn't create hell, Hell is dogmatic and an idea made by man not by god.. In the bible there is no talk of Hell there is however talk of hades and sheoul which is a "common grave" where all dead go. Then upon judgement day they are raised back out from the memory of god and obviously judged.. Good boys and girls go to live on earth... yay. and the bad boys and girls are simple destroyed.... lol. The bible and jesus used "Gehenna" as their example.. This was a dumping ground outside jeursalem.. and simply what you put in, ain't coming back it is destroyed by the fires. So "worthless" things in to "gehenna" and thats it lights out you're laid to rest you ain't coming back... and good boys and girls paradise eternal.

--edit--

One thing.... Oh lovley the almighty god gives us freedom we have free will, that is really great I am going to spend my time doing some really cool things. Time for some entertainment!! Alright...

god: "Nah, wait... you have to do everything I say and live by my rules and worship me non freakin stop.."

Oh so the free will was a real worthwhile thing... Good thinking.

It's like I make an awesome "thing" and it's meant to sit on my fireplace.. but I purposly made it wonky so it keeps freaking falling off... and never sits on the fireplace for more than a blink of an eye. Any one see where the logic is?!

17th Angel · 10-25-2006, 10:06 AM

Wow... No christian response?

moseslmpg · 10-26-2006, 08:53 PM

A few premises for these arguments seem flawed. For instance, a benevolent being is opposed to all evil, right? Well, isn't taking away free will to intervene and remove the perceived evil in itself an evil act? There is the reason He doesn't act immediately right there; if He intervened there would be no point of free will or Creation in the first place.

The inductive argument from evil has more holes than swiss cheese, and the natural law one doesn't really have any justification as to why predation is wrong. Likewise, as someone said, where is the definition of evil? Unless there is a set definition, it is all a matter of perspective, and even after there is a definition it's still mostly perspective.

Edit: I didn;t realize how long ago the original post had been made.

james · 10-26-2006, 09:39 PM

islam says that those who dont follow islam should as every nation was given a messenger at one time or another.so depending on you as a person you might be able to be saved, depending on good deeds and life.

in christianity i dont think there is a hell because as a christian , i knew that god killed His 'son' and Himself so we are saved,so are sins dont matter as someone has been punished for them already,so how can we be punished?

Amica · 10-27-2006, 09:16 AM

The following article I found on the islamic website submission.org:

Predestination

According to the Islamic teachings:
We are absolutely free to believe or disbelieve in God. It is God's will that we will ( Qur’an :18:29, 25:57, 73:19, 74:37, 76:29, 78:39, 80:12).
After committing our original sin), God gave us a chance to denounce our crime and accept His absolute authority (33:72). But we decided that we wanted to see a demonstration of Satan's competence as a god. Many people protest the fact that God has created them, to put them through this gruesome test. Obviously, such people are not aware that [1] they have committed a horrendous crime (Introduction & Appendix 7), and [2] that they were given a chance to denounce their crime and redeem themslves, but they chose to go through the test.
We learn from 57:22 that our lives, along with everything else around us, are pre-recorded on something like a videotape.God fully knows what kind of decision each of us is destined to make; He knows which of us are going to Heaven and which are going to Hell. Even before we were born into this world, God knew which souls are good and which souls are evil. As far as God's omniscience is concerned, we can imagine a stamp on everyone's forehead that says "Heaven" or "Hell." Yet, as far as we are concerned, we are totally free to side with God's absolute authority, or Satan's polytheistic views. Predestination, therefore, is a fact as far as God is concerned, not as far as we are concerned.
This understanding explains the numerous verses stating that "God guides whomever He wills, and misleads whomever He wills." Based on His knowledge, God assigns our souls to the circumstances that we deserve. When God said to the angels, "I know what you do not know" (2:30), this meant that some of us deserved a chance to redeem ourselves. One example of God's guidance for those who deserve guidance is found in 21:51: "We granted Abraham his guidance, for we were fully aware of him." In other words, God knew that Abraham was a good soul who deserved to be guided, and God granted him his guidance and understanding. Another good example is stated in 12:24. Joseph fell for the Egyptian nobleman's wife, and almost committed adultery "if it were not that he saw a sign from his Lord." God teaches us in 12:24 that He "diverted evil and sin from Joseph, for he was one of My devoted worshipers."
Was it Joseph who controlled his lust? Or, was it God's protection from sin that rendered him chaste?
Such is predestination.

Silas · 12-11-2006, 02:42 AM

For: Azure24

I was thinking to myself, if god loves everyone and knows everything and is all powerful. Why then if God knows the future, will he create a sould knowing it would go to Hell?

Dude, these are great questions! Asking these questions myself, lead me on a search for knowledge that is still going on. One thing I can say about my learning of Bible truths is that now I fear God, where as I didnt before. Now I see myself as small, and He's become huge!! I guess thats a good thing though, since Proverbs 1:7 says..."The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge." I pray that God may use my answers to His glory and to your understanding (if in fact my understanding is correct). Concering your question about God's love. It is a common misunderstanding to say God loves everyone, but scripture paints another picture. While it is true that God does love the everyone, He does have a special convernant love for those whom He chooses to save. These people arent any better than humanity at large; as a matter of fact, God sees us all apart from Christ as evil (eventhough we will say different),. but God chooses to love them to display His Glory in forgiveness. This incidentally brings me to your other question..."why did God create? Life is all about God revealing all His excellencies and glory. God was not bored alone in eternity, but Created everything for His glory; which by the way is bound up in the full enjoyment of His creatures. Therefore, when we are fullly satisified in God who is infinitely better than everything, God is thus fully glorified in us, whereby He gets the glory and we the joy, which is the best of both worlds.

Why does hell exist if we do certain bad things in our lives (which most peoples lives is up to 80 approximately years) then why should someone suffer for enternity? Is that fair?

My goodness, I asked the same questions!! Here's what I found out: God is Holy. In fact, so much so that He cannot bare to look upon sin (Hab 1:13). Any sin, no matter how small it is to us, is infinitely great and wicked in the eyes of our Eternal Holy God. Its sort of like this: Say you were to kill an ant, it wouldnt be so much of a big deal. But, if you killed a person, it would be a big deal. And if you were to kill a president or king, still it would be an even bigger deal. There you have the same crime, yet the punishment increased depending on who it was done against. Crimes done against God have eternal consequence. Moreover, since God's goodness is eternally expressed in Heaven, His Justice and wrath is likewise eternally expressed. Finally, Hell exist because God made it for His glory. He is glorified in His justice. The Bible makes it clear that Hell is reasonable justice. No one who is just wants murders and rapist and child molestors and theives, etc., to grow free when they brake the laws. God is even more just that the most just of us...He will NOT Let the guilty go unpunished (Nahum 1:2). As for your question of is it fair? I like God's answers on that question. He says often concerning those kinds of questions, things like..."But who indeed are you – a mere human being– to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:20) Ultimately, God says that it is wrong and arrogant of us to ask those kinds of questions. He declears that He is prefect and will do no wrong. Therefore, His judgements are always Just and right!

If God is all powerful one does he not destroy evil? Is there a reason?

God does destroy evil...Eternally, that is. 2 Thess. 1:9 as well as many other scriptures teach us that Hell exist as a place of eternal destruction. Thats how powerful He is and this is why we ought to do what scriptures say over and over again - namely, "Fear God and Keep His Commandments." This is why Christ came, to take away the sins of ALL those who would repent and TRUST in Him. Hell is real homey. Repent and trust in Jesus!

Do Islam/christians/jews really belive that if someone is not a follower of their religion they would go to hell?

Yes. As a Christian I know that Hell is real and thats why I witness and plead with men to consider Christ. Look at yourself in Light of what God considers good, namely, Jesus. How do you come up? Jesus has kept ALL of God's Ten Commandments, have you? If not, you are indebted to God's laws and MUST pay the price - God is HOLY, remember! If you see yourself in need of a Savior, one is provided for you. You have Jesus' promise that anyone who comes to Him he will not cast away. Trust in Jesus!

Is that fair?

More than you know now. If you can only get just a glimpse of God's holiness and your own sin, then you'd cry bitterly for Jesus.

If someone is bought up around people who aren't religious and does not interact with people who are religious will he go to hell?

Religion does not save - Jesus does! Moreover, no one goes to Hell for not hearing about Jesus, they go there for breaking God's laws. Futhermore, God is Soverign, He has PROMISED to save all those who want to be saved and being born in a country that does not preach the gospel does not matter. Again, God is Soveregin...He is IN CONTROL - Total Control! He will get the gospel (means by which God uses to justify the end in Salvation) out to such a person.

What about people who die before they are born? I am religious but sometimes i have my doubt?

Im happy you asked these tough questions. I pray that God uses these answers to help (if I am right). As for people who die before they are born...Again, God is Sovereign...He will have mercy on whom he wills (Rom. 9:15, etc.).

JosephM · 12-11-2006, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SILAS

Say you were to kill an ant, it wouldnt be so much of a big deal. But, if you killed a person, it would be a big deal. And if you were to kill a president or king, still it would be an even bigger deal. There you have the same crime, yet the punishment increased depending on who it was done against.

Where did you get this may I ask? My Bible says.....
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

JM

Silas · 12-11-2006, 06:09 AM

Cool. Mine says that too!

Thomas · 12-11-2006, 11:55 AM

Why then if God knows the future, will he create a sould knowing it would go to Hell?
Because He is true to His word when He gave man free will. To ensure that no man goes to hell would require the nergation of all that makes him human.

Why does hell exist if we do certain bad things in our lives (which most peoples lives is up to 80 approximately years) then why should someone suffer for enternity?
Do they? How do they? Can we measure the extent of God's infinite mercy? How long does eternity last? Might it not be a moment?

There are those who 'sleep in Christ' and there are those who are awake. I tend towards the idea that the sinner sleeps until the end of the Age. If, at that time of Restoration, there is no 'real' or 'good' to which the being of that person can cling, then that person dissolves within his/her fantasy, which has no reality, no actuality ... that's frightening enough for me, asd a concept., without medieval notions of fire and suffereing.

Perhaps people 'suffer' for as long as they cling to the cause of their suffering, in the way a guily person will oftern insist that they are justified in their guilt...

If God is all powerful one does he not destroy evil?
To do so would involve destroying the human race – or at least the idea of 'freedom'.

Do Islam/christians/jews really belive that if someone is not a follower of their religion they would go to hell?
Some do. Some don't. Catholics don't.

Is that fair?
It's a question of Justice. If there is no justice in the world, is that fair?

If someone is bought up around people who aren't religious and does not interact with people who are religious will he go to hell?
Not necessarily.

What about people who die before they are born?
Then they have had no chance to wilfully sin – they have not lived a life for which to be held accountable.

Thomas

pfw · 02-03-2007, 05:30 AM

I'm avoiding the whole Hell part of this but when in comes to 'pre-ordained' or 'pre-destined' issue I kind of like C S Lewis' explanation in the Screwtape Letters; it goes a bit like this 'God exists outside of time as humans experience it, He experiences all of time like Humans experiance the present. He "sees" all of time like humans see the present- if man 1 saw man 2 kill man 3 in the present- man 1 didn't make man 2 kill man 3, he just witnessed the event, so just because God sees everything (remembering the above about time) doesn't mean he made or forced anyone to do anything'. (Just playing Devils advocate here- any argument about pre-ordained and pre-destined not being true from a Christian point-of-view falls flat on it's face when it comes to Jesus- he had no choice and what about poor Judas?)

pfw · 02-03-2007, 05:34 AM

One thing.... Oh lovley the almighty god gives us freedom we have free will, that is really great I am going to spend my time doing some really cool things. Time for some entertainment!! Alright...

god: "Nah, wait... you have to do everything I say and live by my rules and worship me non freakin stop.."

Oh so the free will was a real worthwhile thing... Good thinking.

It's like I make an awesome "thing" and it's meant to sit on my fireplace.. but I purposly made it wonky so it keeps freaking falling off... and never sits on the fireplace for more than a blink of an eye. Any one see where the logic is?![/quote]

You've still got the choice of following those rules or not... Just because you don't like the concequences of not doing so (or don't like the rules) doesn't negate the choice... Just a thought.

pfw · 02-04-2007, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfw

I'm avoiding the whole Hell part of this but when in comes to 'pre-ordained' or 'pre-destined' issue I kind of like C S Lewis' explanation in the Screwtape Letters; it goes a bit like this 'God exists outside of time as humans experience it, He experiences all of time like Humans experiance the present. He "sees" all of time like humans see the present- if man 1 saw man 2 kill man 3 in the present- man 1 didn't make man 2 kill man 3, he just witnessed the event, so just because God sees everything (remembering the above about time) doesn't mean he made or forced anyone to do anything'. (Just playing Devils advocate here- any argument about pre-ordained and pre-destined not being true from a Christian point-of-view falls flat on it's face when it comes to Jesus- he had no choice and what about poor Judas?)

I got away with this? no-ones going to 'take me to task' on the last point :-(