The Psychology of "Finding God"

[Tao_Equus]

I have to endure so often here the charge that my questioning of what religion IS seems often like an attack on the individual mental balance of those I 'argue' with.

I hope this thread can for once clarify that question and prove that this accusation can only be upheld by assuming I do not ask a valid question. I believe I do, however uncomfortable it is for the 'believer'.


Finding God is highly personal. Those that have been inculcated from birth have not 'found' it till they have first rejected it. Often they go on to rediscover in a new denomination or religion. The reasons for rejection and rediscovery are highly personal but often intimately linked. But what exactly creates the right conditions to find God independent of these individual circumstances?

Before I give my opinion I offer the floor to any who care to give their opinion.



tao

[AndrewX]

I can speak only for certain about what it has been for me, this quest, but I think that what is true for me - if I'm right about my own quest - is really of necessity right about every single one of us.

I believe that we are driven by a desire to know ourselves. It is a quest for our true identity. And the best part is, whatever you have currently settled for -- that ain't it.

The next part is about how to be at peace with this, even learn to use it as our foundation, yet also to accept that life is endless change. And the quest for identity only continues ... (I did not say we wouldn't find an answer, or that we could not, would not, reach our goal!)

This has been said much more eloquently, but this is in my own words. A few lines from `I Am the Walrus' (and also `Within You, Without You') proved true for me long enough ago, that I can no longer question certain assumptions. And yet, my quest continues ... just not so much about finding (answer one question, 10 new ones spring up!), but rather doing.

It's hard to abstract a random human being from his or her environment and circumstances, conditions of birth, childhood, etc. We can't actually do this, yet to idealize for a moment, I again defer to John Lennon and the kind of world suggested by the song `Imagine.' In such a world, despite having "no religion," I thoroughly believe that the other conditions suggested would precisely promote not only the search, but the very discovery of the G-d (and identity/identities) we seek. It would in fact be unavoidable.

As things are, we have all of these religions, and yet we still, do not know god. Perhaps the reason is because what religion clamors so readily to tell us is everything IT knows -- about identity, about god -- and what is left over is taboo, heretical, absurd or pretty much a complete waste of time. This, perhaps in the greatest irony of all, is exactly what you're talking about tao (isn't it?) ... and fortunately, this is just the kind of prompting, or motivation we need, to begin our quest our anew -- albeit sometimes after a breaking away and lapse from the outright, conscious search (or at least from the indoctrination for a - spell).

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I have to endure so often here the charge that my questioning of what religion IS seems often like an attack on the individual mental balance of those I 'argue' with.

I hope this thread can for once clarify that question and prove that this accusation can only be upheld by assuming I do not ask a valid question. I believe I do, however uncomfortable it is for the 'believer'.

Finding God is highly personal. Those that have been inculcated from birth have not 'found' it till they have first rejected it. Often they go on to rediscover in a new denomination or religion. The reasons for rejection and rediscovery are highly personal but often intimately linked. But what exactly creates the right conditions to find God independent of these individual circumstances?

Before I give my opinion I offer the floor to any who care to give their opinion.

Why would one presume to resolve these kinds of questions based only on opinion?

The Psychology of Religion has been a legitimate area of empirical study for at least a century.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Why would one presume to resolve these kinds of questios based on only opinion?

because opinions are all we have, even if the are only informed by googling.


tao

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

because opinions are all we have, even if the are only informed by googling.

I say definitions are in order, as one needs to define what they've found.

I haven't found the larger than life anthropomorphic being that was ingrained in my childhood. Nor the Santa Claus keeping records whose naughty and nice ready to send folks to eternities of bliss or hell. Nor have I found the all knowing creator of the universe. Nor have I discovered the fella that etched the stone commandments.

But I've found G!d. I've found G!d through Christ Jesus. but I wasn't saved.

What I have found is through the teachings that UNeyeR1, that G!d and I are one, that we are all connected, all part of one existence, that through your gains I gain, and if I injure you I injure myself.

I have explored, I'm not done exploring.

[Only Special To God]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I have to endure so often here the charge that my questioning of what religion IS seems often like an attack on the individual mental balance of those I 'argue' with.

I hope this thread can for once clarify that question and prove that this accusation can only be upheld by assuming I do not ask a valid question. I believe I do, however uncomfortable it is for the 'believer'.


Finding God is highly personal. Those that have been inculcated from birth have not 'found' it till they have first rejected it. Often they go on to rediscover in a new denomination or religion. The reasons for rejection and rediscovery are highly personal but often intimately linked. But what exactly creates the right conditions to find God independent of these individual circumstances?

Before I give my opinion I offer the floor to any who care to give their opinion.



tao

Hello Tao,

I do understand what you are saying, and yes, it is does seem to me that it is a battle of who knows more or who has a higher degree, which I have seen that when someone was under attack who was on the offense or defense.

I feel that when we are speaking about God or what we know that we really shouldn't be "arguing". Yes, there can be debates as we share the knowledge that have we gained. Because of our various up bringings and what information that we have been subjected to either we know more or we know less. Sometimes when I have been sitting here reading the posts, I must confess that it was a battle of the minds, trying to prove or justify their opinions. Which I feel is not right....We are here to talk about God and what we know we are to share with others.

In regards to your question Tao, “what exactly creates the right conditions to find God independent of these individual circumstances?”

In my opinion, I don’t know what creates the right conditions to find God. I feel that some us find God at very early age, some of us find him when they are teenagers, some of us find him when they are adults and some just don’t ever find God. There are people that say that they believe in God but in their heart they do not, and they are forever searching for some kind of proof for what they believe in their mind.

God is always with us, all we have to do is be still for a few moments and ask or pray, for him to come into your heart and to help you to open your heart to him.

God Bless
Ian

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I have to endure so often here the charge that my questioning of what religion IS seems often like an attack on the individual mental balance of those I 'argue' with.

I hope this thread can for once clarify that question and prove that this accusation can only be upheld by assuming I do not ask a valid question. I believe I do, however uncomfortable it is for the 'believer'.


Finding God is highly personal. Those that have been inculcated from birth have not 'found' it till they have first rejected it. Often they go on to rediscover in a new denomination or religion. The reasons for rejection and rediscovery are highly personal but often intimately linked. But what exactly creates the right conditions to find God independent of these individual circumstances?

My curiousity is piqued...what could a self-avowed atheist possibly want with finding G-d? Are you really ready to hear...that is, absorb...the answers?

The cynic in me doubts it. I'll wait for the other shoe to drop.

[China Cat Sunflower]

I have not found God, but I found the devil. He's in the details.

Chris

[earl]

Tao, maybe we're barking up the wrong tree to simply pin the desire to search for the ultimate, metaphysical truths only on pyschology. Perhaps its in our genes as in the "God gene:"

Is God in Our Genes? - TIME
and maybe folks like you just aren't wired that way. On a related note, there's interesting anecdotal and actual research to suggest that psychic abilities are genetic. Path has spoken here before about a familial line of that in her family. Path has also spoken of from childhood having various visions or communications with what she took to be God as well as a variety of other entities not typically seen or heard by the vast bulk of humanity-lucky duck. I'm thinking she got a big dose of the God gene & perhaps a few others. I tend to think that we are a world or dimension nested within other worlds or dimensions and entitites perhaps all the way up the chain to God are often in communication with us-trying to find us, not just us find them-but unfortunately we are generally spirit deaf. Path, hope you notice this thread as I'm interested in your reaction to this comment. That latter bit would be particularly no news to the old Celts. Guess that makes that view more "Old Age" than "New Age." Earl

[Tao_Equus]

Bump.

I'm hoping for more responses before I continue.


tao

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

because opinions are all we have

If that is true why do scientists collect data?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

If that is true why do scientists collect data?

We are scientists? get a grip.

[Ahanu]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Finding God is highly personal. Those that have been inculcated from birth have not 'found' it till they have first rejected it. Often they go on to rediscover in a new denomination or religion. The reasons for rejection and rediscovery are highly personal but often intimately linked. But what exactly creates the right conditions to find God independent of these individual circumstances?

Before I give my opinion I offer the floor to any who care to give their opinion.



tao

Well, without considering coverting to a new denomination or religion, I have three circumstances that create "the right conditions to find God."

I say definitions are in order, as one needs to define what they've found.

Here is a quote from Peace is the Way of some definitions to define what should be found.

"Seva: Your actions harm no one and benefit everyone.
Simran: You remember your true nature and your purpose for being here.
Satsang: You belong in the community of peace and wisdom."

To me, a person who has mastered, or discovered, these principles has found God.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by earl

Tao, maybe we're barking up the wrong tree to simply pin the desire to search for the ultimate, metaphysical truths only on pyschology. Perhaps its in our genes as in the "God gene:"

Is God in Our Genes? - TIME
and maybe folks like you just aren't wired that way. On a related note, there's interesting anecdotal and actual research to suggest that psychic abilities are genetic. Path has spoken here before about a familial line of that in her family. Path has also spoken of from childhood having various visions or communications with what she took to be God as well as a variety of other entities not typically seen or heard by the vast bulk of humanity-lucky duck. I'm thinking she got a big dose of the God gene & perhaps a few others. I tend to think that we are a world or dimension nested within other worlds or dimensions and entitites perhaps all the way up the chain to God are often in communication with us-trying to find us, not just us find them-but unfortunately we are generally spirit deaf. Path, hope you notice this thread as I'm interested in your reaction to this comment. That latter bit would be particularly no news to the old Celts. Guess that makes that view more "Old Age" than "New Age." Earl

I think the strongest evidence points toward humans, in general, having an innate tendency to see person-hood and sentience in everything. Now, whether you attribute that to brain function without a connection to reality, or to brain function with a connection to reality... that is the matter of opinion and I don't think there is a "right" answer but only a personal experience.

I think that there is evolutionary purpose in humanity's overall tendency toward animism of some sort-- whether that attributes person-hood to spirits in nature, or to multiple gods, or to one God, or whatever. The evidence from anthropological studies in religion are that religion generally serves important social functions and the basic animistic mindset is grounded in the way human brains work. In a small percentage of the population, there seems to be an innate tendency for a "shamanic" type of cognition, what could be compared to the INFP or INFJ personality types of Myers-Briggs- the types that in traditional societies fulfilled roles of shamans and mystics, and in modern society have no official role but most commonly become teachers and psychologists/counselors (interesting enough).

There is certainly a psychology (and a sociology) to "finding God," but this is not the same question as finding or converting to a religion, and both of these questions are different than the question of the functionality of religion in society and the functionality of spirituality in the individual. Good, solid work in the social sciences have looked at all these questions and research is ongoing- stuff is out there for any who wish to read it.

The thing is that none of it negates individuals' experience of God, or the concept of animism or God. All it says is how this stuff works, how human cognition works, and the positive and negative effects of such on the individual and society. The question about whether all this stems from a reality where there is a God (or spirit-world) or whether it is just a glitch of human cognition that is somehow relevant to our evolution and social functioning is another question, and one for which there is no scientific answer, as there is no observable data that is replicable (outside of hallucinogenic drugs and trance states, which still begs the question).

So for Tao, my visions of the Otherworld, which I perceive to be a part of reality, is merely dream or fantasy, or some sort of strange way my brain functions. But there is nothing that suggests either of us is right, and there is really no way for Tao to come into that Otherworld with me and compare notes. I can share what I am able to express about my own experience, but unlike my scientific studies, I cannot share the experience itself. I can only say that I do believe any person would be hard-pressed to have lived in my body/brain for any length of time and remain an atheist, unless there was a constant assumption that one's experiences were illusory. But then, what of the rest of experiences? How to distinguish between them when all are equally real and vivid in the individual mind?

Now, if I were unsuccessful... homeless, not paying my taxes, and so forth... then people could call me crazy. However, that I have successfully attained a doctorate, teach college, publish stuff in peer-reviewed sources, am moderately financially stable, vote, consult on development projects and what have you... in short, because I am successful in the "real" world... and know when to shut up about my experiences in the Otherworld- well, no one thinks I am crazy. Well, perhaps Tao does, but his voice is drowned out in the majority that just sees me as a slightly eccentric (i.e., therefore normal) professor and anthropologist.

I will conclude that Tao's assumptions about finding God are, at least in my case, inaccurate. I was neither indoctrinated from birth nor did I reject or lose God to find God. Instead, I personally experienced what I call God from, basically, birth. I do not remember a time I was not in connection to the world of Spirit. My ideas, my beliefs... these are a result of this "walking between worlds." And this is nothing new. This was the path of my ancestors. So... I didn't find God. I never forgot God to begin with.

[wil]

Again the question to me is what G!d are you trying to find?

Is it Baal? Tough challenge when you find out there are natural dictates to rain and drought.

Or maybe Zeus or Thor, Atlas or Mercury?

Crap, text messages and words are transmitted at the speed of light, no need for your winged shoes, Lightning and thunder we done developed an understanding, and we have no need for anyone to shoulder the world anylonger....glad to know those gods but don't need you now.

Or our biblical god resting just above the sky utlizing His Divine laptop to keep records for St. Peter...as we can see millions of lightyears and discover planets with potential life...but not heaven yet...and umpteen other reasons like the rainbow being refracted light and not some promise, or earth being round and not a flat disc..and...and...yeah, tough to find that god too.

So what I hear you saying is you have to suspend some belief, or read between the lines of text written thousands of years ago to Find G!d.

I hear ya, tis an issue to find those gods or even to want to. Who wants a god who smites and commits genocide. Who condones incest or tosses locusts and floods over his own creations...

But just as the explanations of the egyptian or greek or norse or african or roman or hebrew or indian or aboriginal gods satisfied the needs and understandings of the people of their day. There is a new understanding of what is unknown, that can satisfy many, that speaks to many, that many experience...but just as then, not all. And just as then, our understanding is not for the future or for you, but for us, and for now. Just as 'The king is dead, long live the King!'

The gods are dead, Long Live G!D!