The Return of an unfamiliar Jesus?

[RubySera_Martin]

Wow! Saltmeister, it sounds like you've really been on a journey. Good for you! You're not just one more voice on the internet, you're out to learn. You sound like my kind of person. Glad to meet you!

[JustifiedByFaith]

Originally Posted by mee

Jehovah’s people of the 19th century correctly understood that the pa·rou·si´a of Christ would be an invisible one

Dear mee,

I would say they didn't have a good understanding of scripture.

"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Revelation 1:7

Even Jesus said about Himself, "For as the lightning comes from the east and FLASHES to the west, SO ALSO will the coming of the Son of Man be."

Matthew 24:27

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by brian

Assuming that we do expect a Messianic return, what will Jesus actually represent in terms of teachings and meaning?


Obviously not every denominational perception can be entirely correct - so what would the possible foundation's of Christ's beliefs be when returning?

I'm inclined to agree with Siege in principal, I think it will essentially be the same as was taught before but in a different manner.

There are a few caveats that go with what follows: the first presumes I have anything close to a reasonable understanding of the prophetic scriptures regarding the return of Messiah. The second is that I have anything close to a reasonable understanding of what the intent is behind the message in the Gospels. The third hinges on whether or not the "rapture theory" has any merit of truth.

So, with these caveats in mind...

According to those who hold to the idea of a rapture (of which I am not one) Messiah returns "secretly" to rescue them from the impending trials and tribulations as set forth in Revelations, Isaiah, Daniel and elsewhere.

At the end of these trials and tribulations from which the raptured are rescued from, Messiah returns in militant glory to set up shop. During this time "evil" is destroyed and "satan" is bound for a thousand years, during which time all those who have overcome and resisted the evil influences will be taught correctly.

It is here where your question enters: "what will Jesus actually represent in terms of teachings and meaning?"

Jesus (or more properly, "Messiah") will represent righteous teaching. No more will war be taught ("they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks"), peace will be endemic. An important question I have is whether or not this is in a physical body or a spiritual one. Death and disease will no longer take their toll. All animals, including humans, will live in harmonious balance.

All of this comes to a brief end after a thousand years, long enough I suspect (like the Hebrews wandering in the wilderness for 40 years) for the generations to forget. At that time Satan is loosed "for a little season" to see who he can tempt into mischief and lead astray. But that time will be short, and those who choose Satan's path after all that was done for their benefit will join him when he is destroyed.

Then a New Heaven and New Earth come into being. What precisely any of this means is wide open to interpretation, whether figurative or literal. I suspect a great deal of it is figurative and allegory. But the skinny is that those that overcome in this present era will enter the next which will be a much better environment in which to live, learn and love.

As for what precisely Messiah "means," I don't know with any certainty, other than to say I hope I understand well enough to earn my way into this next era where I can learn precisely what it is he intends for us to learn.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I'm inclined to agree with Siege in principal, I think it will essentially be the same as was taught before but in a different manner.

There are a few caveats that go with what follows: the first presumes I have anything close to a reasonable understanding of the prophetic scriptures regarding the return of Messiah. The second is that I have anything close to a reasonable understanding of what the intent is behind the message in the Gospels. The third hinges on whether or not the "rapture theory" has any merit of truth.

So, with these caveats in mind...

According to those who hold to the idea of a rapture (of which I am not one) Messiah returns "secretly" to rescue them from the impending trials and tribulations as set forth in Revelations, Isaiah, Daniel and elsewhere.

At the end of these trials and tribulations from which the raptured are rescued from, Messiah returns in militant glory to set up shop. During this time "evil" is destroyed and "satan" is bound for a thousand years, during which time all those who have overcome and resisted the evil influences will be taught correctly.

It is here where your question enters: "what will Jesus actually represent in terms of teachings and meaning?"

Jesus (or more properly, "Messiah") will represent righteous teaching. No more will war be taught ("they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks"), peace will be endemic. An important question I have is whether or not this is in a physical body or a spiritual one. Death and disease will no longer take their toll. All animals, including humans, will live in harmonious balance.

All of this comes to a brief end after a thousand years, long enough I suspect (like the Hebrews wandering in the wilderness for 40 years) for the generations to forget. At that time Satan is loosed "for a little season" to see who he can tempt into mischief and lead astray. But that time will be short, and those who choose Satan's path after all that was done for their benefit will join him when he is destroyed.

Then a New Heaven and New Earth come into being. What precisely any of this means is wide open to interpretation, whether figurative or literal. I suspect a great deal of it is figurative and allegory. But the skinny is that those that overcome in this present era will enter the next which will be a much better environment in which to live, learn and love.

As for what precisely Messiah "means," I don't know with any certainty, other than to say I hope I understand well enough to earn my way into this next era where I can learn precisely what it is he intends for us to learn.

a real one!

You are a gem 123. Thinking about it, trying to leave the door open and remaining honest.

is whether or not this is in a physical body or a spiritual one

Since you are a bunch of rocks that wakes up in the morning and can think then heaven could be each day.

I mean think about it, you can choose; whether to plant a tree, make a baby, teach a kid... you can do lots of stuff that is a contribution of your energy to cause a good thing (life) to exist simply by your choice. And even if you died tomorrow them lives could still be existing. Kind of like a part of you is there.

Then when you to sleep tonight you won't have that choice. The rock that is you is unaware (conscious) until morning.

So the only difference of death and sleep is how you feel about yourself when you close your eyes or face that moment to let go.

If preparing for sleep, you simply think aboout what you have done and what you could do before you close your eyes (maybe) and just confident you get another chance in the am, but otherwise you as a bag of rocks don't know the difference while dead or sleeping.

So could your spirit be what you leave? And if you procreate would a living portion of you (your seed) and all your parants parants be moving forward in time?

Kind of simple if you think about it.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Kind of simple if you think about it.

Welcome to CR, Bishadi.

Are you certain?

[greymare]

im sorry, bishadi but i dont think anything of what you say is simple. LOL. dont worry, its probably just me.

[juantoo3]

Rest assured Greymare, it isn't just you. Me too.

[greymare]

lol

[mee]

Originally Posted by JustifiedByFaith

Dear mee,

I would say they didn't have a good understanding of scripture.

"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Revelation 1:7

Even Jesus said about Himself, "For as the lightning comes from the east and FLASHES to the west, SO ALSO will the coming of the Son of Man be."

Matthew 24:27

"Look!

He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen." (Revelation 1:7)

"Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:3, 30) Jesus ‘comes’ by turning his attention to the executing of Jehovah’s judgments on the nations.


This will result in momentous changes on earth, and since "all the tribes of the earth" have ignored the reality of Jesus’ kingship, they will indeed experience "the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty."—Revelation 19:11-21; Psalm 2:2, 3, 8, 9.

For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the PRESENCE of the Son of man will be. matthew 24;27.

Christ’s

Presence (Parousia)

Mt 24:3—Gr., τὸ σημει̃ον τη̃ς ση̃ς παρουσίας

Iinline with bible prophecy and chronology we have been living in the PRESENCE (parousia) since 1914 when Jesus took up his kingship.


During Jesus’ last evening with his disciples, he told them: "A little longer and the world will behold me no more." (John 14:19)



How is it, then, that "every eye will see him"?


Evidently, John meant "see" in the sense of "discern," just as we can see, or discern, God’s invisible qualities by means of his creations. (Romans 1:20)

[greymare]

well, he knew he was going to die and he was a little depressed about it, i reckon. so the "world will behold me no more".... as for the "every eye will see him"?............well, you just pulled that one out of nowhere cos its talking about god and his creating every thing and therefore you will see him in what he created.......... not what you are going on about. you cant just pull stuff out of nowhere and put it where you please......... or am i wrong?? Im only using a good news bible that i got from a american friend of mine many years ago. (thanks fran), for reference.

[mee]

Originally Posted by greymare

well, he knew he was going to die and he was a little depressed about it, i reckon. so the "world will behold me no more".... as for the "every eye will see him"?............well, you just pulled that one out of nowhere cos its talking about god and his creating every thing and therefore you will see him in what he created.......... not what you are going on about. you cant just pull stuff out of nowhere and put it where you please......... or am i wrong?? Im only using a good news bible that i got from a american friend of mine many years ago. (thanks fran), for reference.

Evidence weighing against Jesus’ presence as being a visible one (in the sense of Jesus’ appearing in a bodily form that could be seen by human eyes) is found in Jesus’ own statement that by his death he would sacrifice his flesh in behalf of the life of the world (Joh 6:51) and in the apostle Paul’s declaration that the resurrected Jesus "dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see." (1Ti 6:14-16)


Jesus therefore could tell his disciples that "a little longer and the world will behold me no more."

True, his disciples would behold him, not only because he would appear to them after his resurrection but also because in due time they would be resurrected to join him in the heavens and ‘behold the glory that his Father had given him.’ (Joh 14:19; 17:24)

But the world in general would not behold him because after his resurrection to life as a spirit creature (1Pe 3:18), Jesus restricted his appearances to his disciples.

His ascension to heaven was also seen only by them, not by the world, and the angels present assured the disciples that Jesus’ return would be in "the same manner" (Gr., tro´pos, not mor·phe´, "form"), hence without public display, discerned only by his faithful followers.—Ac 1:1-11.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Are you certain?

Well if a student was to ask me;

'could you back everything you say up within each branch of existing knowledge?' (science (math), theology and philosophy).....

the only answer is 'absolutely'!

Meaning to simply recognize that unless you are conscious, you have no choice from the position of 'I'.... is being honest with yourself.

If someone wants to walk a lie... then good riddens, as the new will have no need of fibs any further.

To be honest is more important to a continuance of life than any faith.

The commandments do not suggest, lie to yourself to remain good.

just as the bible does not suggest 'read the bible' for answers..... That is the salesmanship of the preachers as they need you to stay complacent or they have no continuance.

Not a preacher alive that does not rely on someone who is far more educated then they are, to live; doctors.

So as they preach the bible gives them life everlasting, barely a one would be alive, without a doctor or medication... as each of them is quite humble upon their death bed.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Well if a student was to ask me;

'could you back everything you say up within each branch of existing knowledge?' (science (math), theology and philosophy).....

the only answer is 'absolutely'!

Interesting. So could I, yet I still reserve the shadow of doubt, knowing that the "truths" of science today are the fallacies and myths of tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Bishadi

If someone wants to walk a lie... then good riddens, as the new will have no need of fibs any further.

New what? Order, perhaps?

Originally Posted by Bishadi

The commandments do not suggest, lie to yourself to remain good.

Do you suggest I lie?

Originally Posted by Bishadi

just as the bible does not suggest 'read the bible' for answers..... That is the salesmanship of the preachers as they need you to stay complacent or they have no continuance.

Not a preacher alive that does not rely on someone who is far more educated then they are, to live; doctors.

So as they preach the bible gives them life everlasting, barely a one would be alive, without a doctor or medication... as each of them is quite humble upon their death bed.

Do you suggest we all look to you as our "doctor?" What is it *you* are selling? If you hadn't noticed, I *can* be humble even in life. Of course, there are also times when humility is inappropriate and ineffective. Surely a learned person such as yourself knows precisely what I am referring to?

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Interesting. So could I, yet I still reserve the shadow of doubt, knowing that the "truths" of science today are the fallacies and myths of tomorrow.

But as each faith has suggested, one day the truth will exist universally and although many suggest JC brought that exact truth, the fact is, that form did not combine mankind with knowledge and why a return is being sought.

New what? Order, perhaps?

In a sense, the truth is a 'new order' as the old failed with integrity.

Remember.. when the truth exist, the young will begin to teach the old...

and the last first, first to last

Do you suggest we all look to you as our "doctor?" What is it *you* are selling? If you hadn't noticed, I *can* be humble even in life. Of course, there are also times when humility is inappropriate and ineffective. Surely a learned person such as yourself knows precisely what I am referring to?

Trust yourself but always remain honest and if something is unknown or not understood, do your homework....

Not suggesting, buy this or believe that.... but to remain true to reality (God) rather than the words of men.

The sciences are each based on people (your peers) contributing to knowledge and if christianity had its way, the inquisitions would still be destroying libraries and people who were 'medicine man' or alchemist (newton) just because the material conflicts with beliefs.

Just be true to yourself and learn, if there is something not understood, ask questions and do what is right; learn...... but to debate and argue because knowledge harm a beliefs and false hopes of magic... well that is simply based on selfishness.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Then when you to sleep tonight you won't have that choice. The rock that is you is unaware (conscious) until morning.

So the only difference of death and sleep is how you feel about yourself when you close your eyes or face that moment to let go.

Ah, but what about those of us who remain conscious while sleeping (us lucid dreamers)? We never get to be the bag of rocks...

As for your recent generalizations about Christianity- some Christians would destroy science to shore up doctrine. Other Christians are scientists and see no problem with the two co-existing and even co-mingling. Christianity isn't one entity, but many- it is an overarching term to mean a body of believers and a diversity of doctrines (hence, Brian's original post).

As for the coming of Christ...

I'm somewhere along the lines of Seattlegal and Wil. Christ is in us, and with us, and around us. Christ walks with me every day. My job is to do the best I can to be Christ-like to others, to love my neighbors and God with all my heart. If my heart and mind are in the right place, the rest is irrelevant- whether the end of the world or the end of my life, I will be in His care and presence. That is enough for me.