The state of the dead....

bruce · 07-01-2004, 02:56 PM

As I'm sure it has been discussed before here we go again.According to the bible as we Jehovah Witnessess look at it and believe when you die you are dead.No heaven no "hell" at death.Now that does not mean some people in the future will be in heaven or "hell".Point being look at what Solomon said, Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 "For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything,neither have they any more a reward for the memory of them is forgotten.Also their love,and their hatred,and their envy is now perished;neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Very simple when you die if you were in a burning hell wouldn't you feel it and be thinking about it? love,hate,envy now p-e-r-i-s-h-e-d.Jesus himself raised the dead.Lazarus was dead and in the tomb and if he, Lazarus, was in heaven do you think he would want to come back to earth?The only ones who would love to come back to the earth are the ones who would be in a "burning hell".Jesus said he is the resurrection and the life and people who exercises faith though dead will come to life-John 11:25...Jesus gave his disciples the power to raise the dead!Resurrection hope is what we have John 9:19 thru 26...............

Vajradhara · 07-01-2004, 04:42 PM

Namaste Bruce,

thank you for the post.

if you are dead, i.e. no physical body...how would you feel pain? no nerves to carry the sensations since there is no body?

Karehndiujo Mohmid · 07-01-2004, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Bruce,

thank you for the post.

if you are dead, i.e. no physical body...how would you feel pain? no nerves to carry the sensations since there is no body?

Namaste, Vajradhara.

I don't think Bruce realizes that this is a discussion forum and not a hilltop from which to preach so, in that case, I'll answer for him or, at least, try to create a plane on which to base a discussion. (Thus, hopefully, sparing poor Brian the headache of cleaning up after these little intermittent bursts of random chaos that Bruce is creating by being so obtuse.)

I think...it would have to be pain of a different level. Of consciousness, that is. Different level of feeling. I mean we see things when we close our eyes, yes? We remember our dreams.

An "animal" isn't equipped with the cerebral functions that homo sapiens so readily brandish like a well-earned diploma as they spiral ever downward from the pompous and circumstantial platform of Global Dominance Ad Infinitum. Their brains are, more or less, discarded by society as little pea-sized tumours in need of a good thrashing with a newspaper -- Yet, (ahem

) on the flipside, "animals" sometimes seem to be the only ones who really know what in Hades is going on!

Microcosm vs. Macrocosm. Instinct vs. Calculated Maneuver. Genetic Fault vs. Learned Behaviour. Depends on the animal, of course and, back on the subject of pain, many animals even exhibit indication of anti-pain mechanisms that we humans... would probably do much better, at this point, without. (Considering the current state of the Union, that is.) Who is to say who is smarter or better?

I would even go so far as to include plants and minerals in my allegorisation.

But, in the attempts to wrap this up (I'm starting to levitate), what I mean to say is that, when we break it all down into atomic structure, even "dead" things "move", "grow", "consume", "assimilate", "excrete", "procreate" ...etcetera.

It's a riddle, to be sure. But just suppose...

Peace.

Vajradhara · 07-01-2004, 07:52 PM

Namaste Karehndiujo,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karehndiujo Mohmid

Namaste, Vajradhara.

I think...it would have to be pain of a different level. Of consciousness, that is. Different level of feeling. I mean we see things when we close our eyes, yes? We remember our dreams.

whilst this is certainly true... do you experience pain in your dreams? we're speaking of physical pain here, not psychological pain, which, if i may say, is the only logical conclusion that one could come to in this instance, in my opinion.

Quote:

An "animal" isn't equipped with the cerebral functions that homo sapiens so readily brandish like a well-earned diploma as they spiral ever downward from the pompous and circumstantial platform of Global Dominance Ad Infinitum.
Their brains are, more or less, discarded by society as little pea-sized tumours in need of a good thrashing with a newspaper -- Yet, (ahem

) on the flipside, "animals" sometimes seem to be the only ones who really know what in Hades is going on!

hmm.. i'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to the topic... but let's go with it for a moment...

we are speaking of physical pain and i would posit that any animal with a central nervous system would experience pain in substantially the same manner. now, i'll certainly agree that the level of mental congnizance of the being can and will directly influce the degree to which they suffer from this experience of pain.

Quote:

But, in the attempts to wrap this up (I'm starting to levitate), what I mean to say is that, when we break it all down into atomic structure, even "dead" things "move", "grow", "consume", "assimilate", "excrete", "procreate" ...etcetera.

It's a riddle, to be sure. But just suppose...

Peace.

notice how you put those in quotes... it's because we can't really apply those concepts to the level of the atomic structure... even the concept of "dead" cannot be applied since that concept relies upon it's antipole, "life".

as we examine the atomic structure even more closely, we actually find that we can't find any of it in any one place.. the clouds of electrons are whirling about hither and yon. we arbitrarily say "this is here" or "that is there"... and it's probably fine for everyday useage.

i'm rambling a bit now.... so i'll stop

Karehndiujo Mohmid · 07-01-2004, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

...we arbitrarily say "this is here" or "that is there"...

Yes, this is what I mean by another level of conciousness, "here" or "there" being relative concepts altogether.

My thoughts on animal intelligence were merely an attempt to illustrate two possible levels in the sense that, if we both drew a picture of the same tree, we would both, undoubtedly, come up with different pictures. They would, however, still be "the same tree".

I'm going to stop rambling for awhile too. Before I get a headache.

Peace.

Mus Zibii · 07-02-2004, 01:54 AM

My thoughts on an after-life or pre-life are pretty undefined. And the doctrines of Judaism and Christianity are confusing at best. Jewish dogma seems pretty clear that you die, that which was made of earth returns to earth, that which was made by God returns to God.

Christianity has a more explicit way of dealing with that. Some sects of Christianity actually refer to a ring of heaven as Abraham's bosom from the Christian parable about Lazarus. They take it to be literal, though. Then you have Jesus on the cross promising Paradise to Dismas, and an end for Gestas being compared to the burning of criminals at Gehenna.

So... who the hell knows. What seems baseless is the Jehovah's witness belief that all will rise and exist on earth under the dominion and servitude of the few who are indoctrinated.

bruce · 07-02-2004, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mus Zibii

My thoughts on an after-life or pre-life are pretty undefined. And the doctrines of Judaism and Christianity are confusing at best. Jewish dogma seems pretty clear that you die, that which was made of earth returns to earth, that which was made by God returns to God.

Christianity has a more explicit way of dealing with that. Some sects of Christianity actually refer to a ring of heaven as Abraham's bosom from the Christian parable about Lazarus. They take it to be literal, though. Then you have Jesus on the cross promising Paradise to Dismas, and an end for Gestas being compared to the burning of criminals at Gehenna.

So... who the hell knows. What seems baseless is the Jehovah's witness belief that all will rise and exist on earth under the dominion and servitude of the few who are indoctrinated.

If you are not humble and meek like and have a good wholesome heart you can't understand.No disrepect intended.No preaching intented ether but Matthew 5:5 is hard to explain unless you have the truth in you.Remember Sodom and Gomorah ?Everyone knows about what happened to them cities.We don't know where they were located but we do know what happened.That fire even though not burning physically is still fresh in people's mind for the sins they commited.We know if we do and practice what the people of Sodom did we will under go what happened to them.Jude 7.Jehovah means "causes to become" good day

Mus Zibii · 07-03-2004, 01:58 AM

m'kay

Vajradhara · 07-03-2004, 03:57 AM

Namaste bruce,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce

If you are not humble and meek like and have a good wholesome heart you can't understand.

i see. and you've judged the condition of his heart in what fashion, exactly? besides which.. .none of those traits have anything to do with reading comprehension the last time that i checked.

Quote:

No disrepect intended.No preaching intented ether but Matthew 5:5 is hard to explain unless you have the truth in you.

"the truth"? that's going to be a tough one to establish

good luck in giving it a go, though.

Matt 5:5 (which translation do you use, by the way)

God blesses those who are gentle and lowly,
for the whole earth will belong to them.
New Living Translation

Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
New KJV

"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
NASB

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
RSV

Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
N. Webster

`Happy the meek -- because they shall inherit the land.
Robert Young Literal

Blessed the meek, for *they* shall inherit the earth.
Darby

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
ASV

Blessed are the gentle, For they shall inherit the eretz.
Hewbrew Names

beati qui lugent quoniam ipsi consolabuntur
Vulgate

www.blueletterbible.org is quite excellent for this sort of thing..

Quote:

Remember Sodom and Gomorah ?Everyone knows about what happened to them cities.We don't know where they were located but we do know what happened.

heh. here's a site that says that they were nuked from orbit:
http://www.halexandria.org/dward194.htm

the Bible says that they were located in the Valley of Siddim (Gen 14:3), fyi.

According to Tacitus's History 5.7 and Josephus's Wars 4.8.4, their ruins were still visible in classical and NT times, not yet being covered with water.. i would direct the interested reader to this site for more information:
http://www.bible-history.com/jesus/j...ed00000522.htm

Quote:

That fire even though not burning physically is still fresh in people's mind for the sins they commited.We know if we do and practice what the people of Sodom did we will under go what happened to them.

what, exactly, is the sin that the city of Sodom committed?

Mus Zibii · 07-03-2004, 05:50 AM

You know, I've read Tacitus and Josephus, and I don't recall that about Sodom. Cool. Thanks for the info Vajradhara.

Vajradhara · 07-03-2004, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mus Zibii

You know, I've read Tacitus and Josephus, and I don't recall that about Sodom. Cool. Thanks for the info Vajradhara.

de nada

bruce · 07-03-2004, 01:47 PM

no matter what translation they all say "shall inherit the earth"I use on this board the King James 1611 edition.The sin commited in Sodom is fornacation and homosexuality.These things will also keep people from inheritng Gods kingdom. 1 corinthians 6:9.Thats what I can't understand about Gay preist ,the bible its self says homosexuality is wrong and no part of it will be in Gods kingdom.I'm not judging anyone thats for God to do but I know homosexuals if they don't change will not make it.

Vajradhara · 07-03-2004, 09:14 PM

Namaste Bruce,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce

no matter what translation they all say "shall inherit the earth"I use on this board the King James 1611 edition.

i would suggest that this term does not mean what you think that it does. if you've not had an opportunity to dialog with some learned Jews on this topic i would highly encourage you to do so.

Quote:

The sin commited in Sodom is fornacation and homosexuality.

source, please.

Quote:

the bible its self says homosexuality is wrong and no part of it will be in Gods kingdom.

source, please. the Bible never uses the word homosexuality in any place.

Quote:

I'm not judging anyone thats for God to do but I know homosexuals if they don't change will not make it.

that's probably a good thing

however, as you are a Jehova's Witness and therefore, hold to the Doctrine of the Elect... aren't there 144,000 that have already been saved? don't you feel that spreading the message lessens the chances that YOU might be one of the elect... especially seeing as there is no method for you to know that, as it is written in the Book of Life?

I, Brian · 07-04-2004, 10:35 AM

There was an interesting program a while back, that looked at an earthquake, coupled with some major landslip and flooding, that finished off Sodom and Gomorrah.

As for the "sins" of these places - they're hardly reported in glowing terms, but somehow I doubt their chant of; "Give us your daughter to f*ck, or we'll f*ck you!" (paraphrased) really consitutes homosexuality as we understand it in the modern world.

Mus Zibii · 07-04-2004, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

... but somehow I doubt their chant of; "Give us your daughter to f*ck, or we'll f*ck you!" (paraphrased) really consitutes homosexuality as we understand it in the modern world.

LOL That paraphrasing cracked me up. But yeah, the sexual 'sin' of Sodom is weird when the parable is taken as forming doctrine. Apparently, God looks favourably upon giving your daughters to be gang raped. I really don't see any defined 'sin' of the various scorched cities. They were just without God.