The Ten Commandments (How is it Love?) - Page 2

Quahom1 · 03-31-2006, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Good points all, Q. In my typical way, I agree with what you say about not being able to keep the commandments except by the help of the Spirit. What I disagree with is the idea that keeping the commandments leads to condemnation outside of Christianity. By the love of the Spirit we are motivated to keep the commandments, and by grace of God we are forgiven when our selfish desires, or our ignorance, get in the way of that.

Overtly pious people who then refuse to help another are irritating, and it is an easy trap to fall into. I think that sharing our stories and building each other up can help us stay out of that trap. But I also think about Bob x's points in the 'knowledge of good and evil' thread--we very often fail to comprehend all the unintended impact, for good and bad, our best intentions have on others. Perhaps this is a strength in keeping the law: it minimizes the mistakes we make when we have the best of intentions.

peace,
lunamoth

Hmmm, in many of the Middle Eastern countries, it is against the law to touch a woman, not your family or wife, yet women get hit by cars, or blown up by bombs, and military men not only touch these injured women, but often times perform artificial resperation, or emergency surgery, or emergency dental work. Clearly they broke the "law". Clearly the "impact" of these men breaking the "law" is not left un-noticed by those who follow that "law". But, the "medics" who break that law could care less when a life is at stake (a double breaking of the law). Perhaps the "law" should be absolutely adhered to, and the injured should die or suffer as a result (fat chance, if the means to fix or alleviate the problem are available...)

Does that mean we stop "breaking the law"?

Sometimes, laws are stupid. Jesus stated unequivically, Love God, Love neighbor (and implied, all else will fall into place). What He meant was/is if one can keep these two simple but profound laws, everything else is gravy. Nevermind what others think, just do what is right.

The hardest part however, is knowing what is right for others that are not Christian...

v/r

Q

lunamoth · 05-12-2009, 01:46 AM

Was thinking about this thread recently.

I know many people equate love with emotion and today many go on to say that it's all just evolution-ingrained instinct. We feel love because it helps us raise our young and protect each other to survive, end of story.

And maybe laws are equated with logic and reason. We think about how we want our societies to function and then make laws to conform everyone to that vision.

But I think it is the other way around.

Love is intentional and takes reason. It requires the choice and will to work for the best for others. Sometimes others near us that we don't particularly like, sometimes others who are so far from us we can't feel much at all about them. But we still want them to have good lives, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Laws, on the other hand, come into play when emotions rule. It's easy to say our ethics are ruled by respect and love for all people, but when we are afraid or angry it is not so easy to stick to those ethics. So, the law draws the hard line in the sand for us and implies an added consequence, some kind of enforcement, to shape us into our ethical standards even when we can't reason our way to doing the right thing.

Love also takes self sacrifice and discipline. Sure, you can do what you want (all things are permissible), but out of consideration for others we might give up some of those liberties. Maybe give up quite a few. I know as a mother I've given up many things willingly out of love for my family.

But, evolution has ingrained in us a selfishness. We are, in a sense, incomplete. The same instincts that got us to master our environment and reach great heights in technology, sublimity in the arts, and sophisticated understandings about everything from the farthest stars to the mysterious workings of subatomic particles, those same instincts make it very hard for us to not torture our enemies when we are afraid or even be uncivil in our conversations when we feel personally insulted.

We know love is the way, we hate laws. But the laws are the fall-back position when reason fails.

wil · 05-12-2009, 03:30 AM

three books if anyone is interested....

Amazon.com: The Ten Challenges: Spiritual Lessons from the Ten Commandments for Creating Meaning, Growth, and Richness Every Day of Your Life: Leonad Felder: Books

Amazon.com: Metamorality: Eric Butterworth: Books

Amazon.com: The Ten Commandments: Emmet Fox: Books

they all go beyond, behind the commandments...

path_of_one · 05-12-2009, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Love is intentional and takes reason. It requires the choice and will to work for the best for others. Sometimes others near us that we don't particularly like, sometimes others who are so far from us we can't feel much at all about them. But we still want them to have good lives, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Love also takes self sacrifice and discipline. Sure, you can do what you want (all things are permissible), but out of consideration for others we might give up some of those liberties. Maybe give up quite a few.

But, evolution has ingrained in us a selfishness. We are, in a sense, incomplete. The same instincts that got us to master our environment and reach great heights in technology, sublimity in the arts, and sophisticated understandings about everything from the farthest stars to the mysterious workings of subatomic particles, those same instincts make it very hard for us to not torture our enemies when we are afraid or even be uncivil in our conversations when we feel personally insulted.

Awesome post, Luna. Great points.

Marsh · 05-12-2009, 06:06 PM

This is a little off-topic, but one thing I've considered is that the way we interpret the ten commandments may not be the way God intended them. That is to say, God did intend us to misinterpret them. Anyone confused yet?

If I as a parent was to say to my child, "You will do your homework every night," the obvious connotation would be that I'm commanding her to get her homework done, yeah? But what if the context was a little different? What if the context was that my daughter said that she loved me, but I questioned her about her love. Let's say that she asked me, "Well, what would I have to do to show you that I love you?" And I reply, "If you love me, you will do your homework every night (because in so doing you will succeed in school, stay out of trouble, and make me proud of you)."

I sometimes wonder if the "ten commandments" are not actually commandments in our understanding of what a commandment is. I wonder if they are not more along the lines of "the ten eventualities" that people display when they do love God and do care about each other. In that way, we don't really break commandments in the way that we break laws; when we transgress, it's more of a barometric reading of how well we're doing.

Of course, I don't really have much scriptural basis for this claim. It comes from what Jesus said when he told us that if we love him we will keep his commands. This could be interpeted as we show love by keeping his commands, but it could also be interpreted as we keep his commands when we truly love him.

lunamoth · 05-12-2009, 06:08 PM

I think that is a very helpful understanding of the ten commandments Marsh. A similar way I've heard that expressed is that the ten commandments (and the Law in general) are a path, a way, to good relationships with each other and with God.

I agree that it is more: if you follow these you will be fulfilled and happy, rather than: if you break these you will be punished.

wil · 05-12-2009, 07:15 PM

Namaste all,

Ok I'm gonna ditto Path and Luna, nice posts Luna and Marsh.

The book I mentioned above Metamorality used to be titled "Breaking the Ten Commandments" As in Moses broke them, as in breaking them down to their underlying thought. And breaking them as Moses saw the people weren't ready, breaking them into bits that we can absorb.

Dondi · 05-13-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

If I as a parent was to say to my child, "You will do your homework every night," the obvious connotation would be that I'm commanding her to get her homework done, yeah? But what if the context was a little different? What if the context was that my daughter said that she loved me, but I questioned her about her love. Let's say that she asked me, "Well, what would I have to do to show you that I love you?" And I reply, "If you love me, you will do your homework every night (because in so doing you will succeed in school, stay out of trouble, and make me proud of you)."

Because kids do not know how to love in this manner...yet, especially teenagers. So my default is "Do you homework or else..."

The 'or else' usually gets their attention.

But I think you've kinda hit on something with the learning process, Marsh. Commandments, rules (yuck!), cramps our style. But the process of discipline is such that hopefully you get to the point that they are no longer 'rules', but something that you see as valuable in obeying. Mom and Dad were right all along. I see the value of education now that I'm on my own. (I had horrible grades in high school. Not because I couldn't do well, I just didn't try. Later when I decided to take college courses, I actually liked learning and made good grades. Even today I'll occasionally take a course in something if it interests me and will excel in it.)