The Transfiguration

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Arizona

I think Moses represented the Law and Elijah the Spirit. The two houses that work together but illustrate the same thing differently. For example, Moses would represent the flesh/tabernacle and Elijas the spirit/temple. Jesus brought peace to the two. Our flesh and our Spirit. He came so that all flesh would be saved,or, that all flesh would be activated by His spirit that was poured out at Pentecost. His and our resurrection in the flesh.


Name meanings:

James - supplanter
John - the lord is gracious
Peter - rock

These are the three witnesses.

So perhaps we have a story in here. For example, supplanter means one who wrongfully or illegally seizes and holds the place of another. So we have the nephilim who seized the dna, the lord is gracious which is the salvation of the flesh or dna, and the rock which is the flesh that was saved. To me it is a story or figure of what Jesus came to do. To bring the Holy Spirit into all flesh so nullifying the plot to separate God through tainted dna from the flesh. As I understand it this was the first fall of Babylon. But babylon falls twice. The second time is when the Provision for the two making peace is activated by our resurrection. His was first. Then the provision for the rest of creation is the second. In my understanding this will end the saga of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpant. Reptillian? Though I believe that the reptillian or nephalim were the offspring not the ones who manipulatd the dna to begin with. When these ones are defeated as such that will be the second fall of Babylon. Jesus the only begotton Son of God brought the first Babylon to an end and the adopted sons, us, will be the instruments of the second fall of Babylon. This will be exposed and finished when our dna, Divine Nature Activated, is activated. When this happens I believe the second Judgement will finish the saga. When flesh cannot mock Father or His presence and it is cleary exposed that will end all this mess. That nothing can exist without Him nor can anything prevent Him. Its all Fathers and always was and all we can do is bend what is in the tool box. We cannot mock or change what the toolbox is. Its nature is absolute which is the gracious resolve of all these things. Thank God !

What say you?

this is an interesting take also. i am not sure what to say because you put into words i have never heard before, but i cant say that i see anything wrong with this analogy. i especially like the Divine Nature Activated, in us, which started at pentecost AND, that can now take place for us if we seek it, because of Jesus.

i know there is a passage later that talks of moses being faithful in all his 'house', but Jesus 'built' the house & receives more honor. (paraphrased)
elijah & elisha i still do not understand, but i know it will come to me someday.
i also agree that Jesus brought peace to both our flesh & our spirit or i should say, peace while we are in the flesh, through the spirit.
pretty neat stuff.

[mee]

did not jesus say that no man has gone to heaven?

Who was the first to ascend to this "lofty abode" of our heavenly Father? His beloved Son, Jesus Christ. He said: "No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13) This clearly shows that no human had gone to heaven. But Jesus promised that some humans would go there. Just before he ascended to heaven, he said to his faithful disciples: "I am going my way to prepare a place for you . . . and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be."—John 14:2, 3.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mee

did not jesus say that no man has gone to heaven?

Who was the first to ascend to this "lofty abode" of our heavenly Father? His beloved Son, Jesus Christ. He said: "No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13) This clearly shows that no human had gone to heaven. But Jesus promised that some humans would go there. Just before he ascended to heaven, he said to his faithful disciples: "I am going my way to prepare a place for you . . . and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be."—John 14:2, 3.

i dont see what that has to do with this. there are miracles & splendor that happens all the time in the scriptures.
heaven is a place as well as a condition.
you have said yourself many times that man was created to live forever. so, at what point then, does man not become immortal & after God makes him?
only the flesh is mortal as far as i can see, otherwise man would not be a man & he would be a spirit being only 'like' that of angels & God himself.

here is what i have for transfigure & for vision:

3339 metamorphoo met-am-or-fo'-o from 3326 and 3445; to transform (literally or figuratively, "metamorphose"):--change, transfigure, transform.

3705 horama hor'-am-ah from 3708; something gazed at, i.e. a spectacle (especially supernatural):--sight, vision.

[Arizona]

Originally Posted by Bandit

yah. this was real good for me. that is what Jesus was showing us, the gift of life- the gift of eternal life through Him. pretty neat stuff
Arizona, were you raised in church? or did you search these things out on your own?

Hi Bandit,

I was not raised in church. My family were not "religious" at all. Im not even sure if they were athiets at the time. Anyway, when I was 13 Father told me who Jesus was in such a way I could never deny Him. Since then I have been mainly led by His Spirit and when I read I just ask Him what things mean. I went to church later on in life a bit but didnt really feel like I belonged there. So we just go solo a lot.

Have a nice rest of your evening. I havent had the opportunity to be on the forums today because of puter problems at work. Hope I can interact more tomorrow.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Arizona

Hi Bandit,

I was not raised in church. My family were not "religious" at all. Im not even sure if they were athiets at the time. Anyway, when I was 13 Father told me who Jesus was in such a way I could never deny Him. Since then I have been mainly led by His Spirit and when I read I just ask Him what things mean. I went to church later on in life a bit but didnt really feel like I belonged there. So we just go solo a lot.

Have a nice rest of your evening. I havent had the opportunity to be on the forums today because of puter problems at work. Hope I can interact more tomorrow.

that is neat. i was feeling something different & special so that is why i had to ask & i appreciate you sharing that
some of the things you have been saying are things i got between the ages of 5 & 12 in church & you are bringing those great memories back for me.
i am glad you joined CR.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i dont see what that has to do with this. there are miracles & splendor that happens all the time in the scriptures.
heaven is a place as well as a condition.
you have said yourself many times that man was created to live forever. so, at what point then, does man not become immortal & after God makes him?
only the flesh is mortal as far as i can see, otherwise man would not be a man & he would be a spirit being only 'like' that of angels & God himself.

here is what i have for transfigure & for vision:

3339 metamorphoo met-am-or-fo'-o from 3326 and 3445; to transform (literally or figuratively, "metamorphose"):--change, transfigure, transform.

3705 horama hor'-am-ah from 3708; something gazed at, i.e. a spectacle (especially supernatural):--sight, vision.

well i feel that it does have a bearing ,because Jesus always spoke truth ,and he says that no man had gone to heaven ,so moses and Ilijah were not in heaven the immortality of the human soul is not a bible teaching and the spirit that goes back to God when we die is the force that activates the cells it is like electricity, with out elecricity we have no power we do not have a shadowy thing inside of us that goes back to God , but it is only God who can ressurrect us again . and when the time comes for the earthly resurrection moses and Ilijah will be resurreced on to a paradise earth . the 144,000 who will rule in heaven with Jesus did not start to be chosen untill 32C,E, so moses and Ilijah were not really in heaven , it was a vision, and moses and Ilijah forshadowed the remnent of the 144,000 on the earth ,at the time that Jesus came into his glory in the heavens in 1914 that is what it means for today
the vision of Jesus transfigured was a foretaste of Christ’s coming in Kingdom power and glory, eventually to judge mankind

In fact, toward the close of the first century C.E., John recorded further visionary glimpses of Jesus in heavenly glory.—Revelation 1:12-20; 14:14; 19:11-16 that is not to say that they did not see the vision ,they did just as John did when he wrote the book of revelation but it was a vision it was not acually moses and Ilijah in heaven at that time

[Thomas]

We have to be careful not to confuse the temporal and the eternal here. No man goes to heaven except through the Son - but the Son is coeternal with the Father - past, present and future are all one with God: In God there is only 'now'.

Christ's Passion and Resurrection was in this sense a temporal event, but in its accomplishment the gates of heaven are opened in eternity, so from that moment of his accomplishment, the 'effect' reaches forwards and backwards in time - because 'time' is a condition of material being.

Thus Moses and Elijah are in Heaven because of the Sacrifice of the Cross which is prefigured in the Transfiguration. If such is not the case then the event would have occurred in a garden, a valley, or in the desert - but on a mountain has its obvious symbolic significance.

St Maximus the Confessor in the 6th century spoke of Moses and Elijah representing the Law and the Prophets - Transcendance and Immanence - and his rainment which became white as snow is the Spirity illuminating the clothes as the word of Scripture is itself a 'body' - so then His body, in eternity the Body which is Scripture, and in times to come the Mystical Body as spoken of by St Paul.

Christ can be as 'present' to the past as He can be 'present' now.

With God, everything is possible.

Thomas

[Arizona]

at the time that Jesus came into his glory in the heavens in 1914 that is what it means for today

Mee,

Can you elaborate on this for me please?

Thanks !

[Arizona]

Thank you Bandit. I have been told that before but not sure what it all means yet. But I know the Day is approaching and is here now... It wont be long Brother.

Much Love !

[wil]

Anyway, when I was 13 Father told me who Jesus was in such a way I could never deny Him

with no religious upbringing...and this sounds like a sit down/one conversation. Your father must have been quite eloquent and succinct. That is one conversation worth remembering....of course the result is beneficial, I mean the words.

[Arizona]

Just in case, I didnt mean my biological father I meant Father God.

Yes it was and it was clear and confident. What He told me was this, He said, He (Jesus) is everything He says that He is and He will do everything He said He was going to do. I think there is something very deeply burried in my heart that will still see this manifest even more fully. I think there was a promise He made me that I dont remember but it was very personal and precious to me and in this world I will need to remember it. I knew from that point on with no doupt that Jesus was alive and His Son. The mere statements of this will never reveal what this really means or His nature. Lots of dogmas surround this but someday people will understand the simplicity of Him and what Father really did for the sonship.

Peace !

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

well i feel that it does have a bearing ,because Jesus always spoke truth ,and he says that no man had gone to heaven ,so moses and Ilijah were not in heaven the immortality of the human soul is not a bible teaching and the spirit that goes back to God when we die is the force that activates the cells it is like electricity, with out elecricity we have no power we do not have a shadowy thing inside of us that goes back to God , but it is only God who can ressurrect us again . and when the time comes for the earthly resurrection moses and Ilijah will be resurreced on to a paradise earth . the 144,000 who will rule in heaven with Jesus did not start to be chosen untill 32C,E, so moses and Ilijah were not really in heaven , it was a vision, and moses and Ilijah forshadowed the remnent of the 144,000 on the earth ,at the time that Jesus came into his glory in the heavens in 1914 that is what it means for today
the vision of Jesus transfigured was a foretaste of Christ’s coming in Kingdom power and glory, eventually to judge mankind

In fact, toward the close of the first century C.E., John recorded further visionary glimpses of Jesus in heavenly glory.—Revelation 1:12-20; 14:14; 19:11-16 that is not to say that they did not see the vision ,they did just as John did when he wrote the book of revelation but it was a vision it was not acually moses and Ilijah in heaven at that time

Actually the Bible states that Jesus said "No man comes to the Father but through the Son." We also know that Elijah was taken to the Father before dying, hence must assume that he went through the Son. We also know that Enoch walked with God 42 years and was taken up (again, it must have been through the Son).

We also know the author of the Gospel of John, is not the same author of Revelations. They were two different people. John would have been close to 100 years old, and man's life span was limited (on the best days) to three score and 10 back then.

Also the putting on of immortality by the human soul or spirit is biblical, as I clearly pointed out in my previous post. Granted it is through the Grace of God, but none the less it is fact (according to scripture).

Physics teaches us succinctly that energy cannot be destroyed nor created...only changed. When the life force leaves the body, it does not disappear. That energy has to go somewhere, or it remains as potential, vs. kinetic. Also, if God knew us before we were stitched together in the womb, why not after we have left our shell? We also know that the body never truly dies. Oh as in of itself it ceases to function, but it provides nutrients (eventually) for other life. And individual cells within a body can continue to live for decades (so far), after the collective form fails.

Life force is much different than electricity. In fact I think it a much higher form of energy than electricity. We can keep a body alive almost indefinitely today, but can't put the life force that occupied it back in.

I will not debate on theological issues not biblical to me. How the choosing of the 144,000 went from the time of revelation's tribulation (which totals seven years, after the Holy Spirit departs the Earth), to 32 AD and the coronation of Jesus in 1914, was determined is definitely not obvious in the bible (not the one I use). The 144,000 are chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel...and we only know where two of them actually are. We also know they are virgin males.

In the mean time, me and mine will try to serve the Lord.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[TexLittlefield]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i have heard some people say that is when the Kingdom (Church) started, but i dont think it was because they were not filled with the Holy Ghost until Pentecost.

The "church" existed before Pentecost.

Foe example , they had Holy Spirit power prior to Pentecost (Matt. 10:5,
19,20)

Christ spoke of his disciples as a “flock” prior to Pentecost (Luke 12:32;
Matt. 26:31,32). The church is identified as the “flock” of God (Acts
20:28,29; 1 Pet. 5:2,3).

The literal meaning of the word church (ekklesia). From ek, meaning "out"
and kaleo meaning "to call." Jesus called out His disciples from the disciples
of John early in His public ministry, forming the church or called-out
"ASSEMBLY"

Christ said He would leave His “house” on earth when He went on a “far
journey” (ascended back unto heaven) (Mark 13: 31-37). The church is
identified as His “house” (Heb. 3:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:15; Eph. 2:20,21; 1 Cor.
3:16). Christ ascended prior to Pentecost (Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11).

They [us] had been in existence [companied with us] “from the baptism
of John” (Acts 1:21,22).

Christ sang in His church prior to Pentecost (Mark 14:26; in fulfillment of
Psalm 22:22; see Heb. 2:12).

And finally.....There is NO Scripture anywhere to indicate that the church
began at Pentecost.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by TexLittlefield

The "church" existed before Pentecost.

Foe example , they had Holy Spirit power prior to Pentecost (Matt. 10:5,
19,20)

Christ spoke of his disciples as a “flock” prior to Pentecost (Luke 12:32;
Matt. 26:31,32). The church is identified as the “flock” of God (Acts
20:28,29; 1 Pet. 5:2,3).

The literal meaning of the word church (ekklesia). From ek, meaning "out"
and kaleo meaning "to call." Jesus called out His disciples from the disciples
of John early in His public ministry, forming the church or called-out
"ASSEMBLY"

Christ said He would leave His “house” on earth when He went on a “far
journey” (ascended back unto heaven) (Mark 13: 31-37). The church is
identified as His “house” (Heb. 3:1-6; 1 Tim. 3:15; Eph. 2:20,21; 1 Cor.
3:16). Christ ascended prior to Pentecost (Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11).

They (“us”) had been in existence (“companied with us”) “from the baptism
of John” (Acts 1:21,22).

Christ sang in His church prior to Pentecost (Mark 14:26; in fulfillment of
Psalm 22:22; see Heb. 2:12).

And finally.....There is NO Scripture anywhere to indicate that the church
began at Pentecost.

some of what you say is true but i disagree with most of what you are saying. it started with 12, then 120 & it says on pentecost there were about 3000 souls added to the church & that is on Pentecost.
if you are trying to tell me Jesus could have a church prior to his death burial & reusrrection, then you are sadly mistaken & you completely toss out the blood of Jesus for salvation.
the entire gospel, faith & hope of the Church (that is capital C) is built on the death burial & resurection of Jesus Christ.
Jesus could not have a body & a bride until after his death burial resurrection.

Unless you feel the disciples & you can bypass that & obtain salvation in another way?
Jesus goes first, his sheep follow him. No blood, no salvation, no church.

Thou art Peter, upon this rock will I build my church (paraphrase)

you should also know there is a difference between a disciple and an apostle.
If Jesus had not gone to Calvary, there would be no 'C'hurch reguardless of his minsitry prior.
i think you should reconsider the timing of events & get your building blocks straight.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Arizona

[/font]

Mee,

Can you elaborate on this for me please?

Thanks !

well ,without going off track for this thread , briefly Jesus came into kingly power right on time and inline with bible chronology and prophecy at the end of the appointed times of the nations (end of the gentile times) and 1914 was the end of the gentile times and he was the one with the legal right to the davidic throne .Jerusalem was always the place where a king represented God but from 607B.C.E. to 1914 C.E there was no king on Jehovahs throne to represent him , but in 1914 Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom not in earthly Jerusalem but in heaven
But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother ..galations 4;26

Jesus’ miraculous transfiguration provided a foregleam of him as the enthroned King of God’s Kingdom.