The Transfiguration - Page 2

Quahom1 · 08-26-2007, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

that was the point i was making, at that moment, even though jesus was still on earth, that moment in time was the kingdom of god and one would have been looking at the past, present, and future all at once because god is outside our time. i believe in matthew somewhere he says some of them standing there with jesus will get a glimpse of the kingdom of god. time travel is a way to put it, i think more like manifest from one heavenly dimension to a temporal dimension. because before jesus said he would take the cup on earth, in heaven he already knew the ending--he is alpha and omega.

agreed.

Dondi · 08-27-2007, 08:22 PM

I take in consideration other things in the bible that relate to the figures of the Transfiguration. Elijah, as one who was carried away in a "chariot of fire" up to heaven, is also one who is prophesized as returning in Malachi 4:5-6 (And incidently, Moses is mention in the previous verse 4). Many thought John the Baptist, was Elijah, but Jesus said that John could have been Elijah, if John's message was accepted. The implication is that John preached repentence in preparation of the coming of Christ, similiar to the message of the second coming of Elijah.

But evidently, John was not Elijah to come. However, in the book of Revelation chapter 11, we have a figure who will be one of two witnesses who will proclaim the gospel before the return of Christ, who will have the power to shut up the rains of heaven during their ministry, much like Elijah in the days of King Ahab in II Kings. The other witness will have the power to turn the waters into blood and smite various plagues on the earth, much like Moses did with the Egyptians. If you recall at the end of Deuteromony, that God buried Moses and no one knows where He buried him. And in Jude 9 we find a strange verse concerning the body of Moses being contended between Michael and the devil. Why would Satan be so interested in the body of Moses? Unless, Satan is somehow threatened by it. Or maybe God isn't through with it yet.

So when we turn back to the Transfiguration, I've stuck wondering if there is any coorelation between what find in the above passages and the incident involving Jesus on the mountaintop. Could it be a prelude to things to come?

wil · 08-27-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Elias signifies the prophets, Moses signifies the Law ... Mercy and Justice ... the Letter and the Spirit ...

So often G!d and Jesus represent Love.... Interesting contemplation in John - Love, Peter - Faith, James - Judgement...physical/material traits meeting/confronting their spiritual counterparts...

What more has your group come up with??

JosephM · 08-27-2007, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

I take in consideration other things in the bible that relate to the figures of the Transfiguration. Elijah, as one who was carried away in a "chariot of fire" up to heaven, is also one who is prophesized as returning in Malachi 4:5-6 (And incidently, Moses is mention in the previous verse 4). Many thought John the Baptist, was Elijah, but Jesus said that John could have been Elijah, if John's message was accepted. The implication is that John preached repentence in preparation of the coming of Christ, similiar to the message of the second coming of Elijah.

But evidently, John was not Elijah to come.
(snip)

Hi Dondi,

That is not at all what I read in the KJV of the Bible. It seems Jesus said John was Elias (Elijah) which was to come.

Matthew 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? [11] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. [12] But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. [13] Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

And again...

Mark 9:11-13
And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? [12] And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. [13] But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

And again
Matthew 11:13-15
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. [14] And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. [15] He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Love and Peace,
JM

Dondi · 08-28-2007, 11:58 AM

JM,

Regardless of whether you are in the group that espouses reincarnation, my basic premise stands. It was obvious that John's message wasn't recieved, therefore at that particular time Elias did not restore all things. The Malachi verses suggest a repentance for the nation of Israel, "before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord." The first coming of Jesus wasn't the "great and dreadful day of the Lord". Jesus came first to save, not to destroy. But you will notice in Malachi 4:6 that the promise of Elijah's coming was conditional. That Elijah will "turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." You will find that the two olive branches, two candlesticks, in a reference to Zechariah 4:12-14, were likewise rejected in Rev. 11. These two witnesses are for the benefit of Israel, as they prophesy in the future Temple in Jerusalem. And after they are killed, resurrected, and taken up to heaven, God will strike with an earthquake and while many are killed, many will give glory to God. The "great and dreadful day of the Lord" is yet to come. In those days, God will smite the earth with a curse, before finally restoring all things.

JosephM · 08-28-2007, 09:45 PM

Hi Dondi,
Actually I was not trying to espouse reincarnation. Only pointing out that writings plainly say that Elias had come already as John the Baptist. Further more he did restore all things. If you look up the Greek iwhere Jesus says Elias shall restore all things, the word 'pas' for all actually can mean 'whosoever'. And I think you will find God right now in his temple reconstituting (restoring) whosoever will come. As far as the two olive trees go, I think you will find they are the two witnesses, The nation of Israel who have accepted Christ (the natural olive tree) and the gentiles who have accepted Christ (the wild olive tree or branch that has been grafted in) They are also represented as two candlesticks because they are two churches (lights to the world) not denominations. But then again, if one wants to look or wait for a new temple in old jerusalem thats okay with me. Howbeit, the Lord God dwells in temples not made with mens hands. Just a view to consider. no more... no less.

Love in Christ,
JM

Dondi · 08-29-2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hi Dondi,
Actually I was not trying to espouse reincarnation. Only pointing out that writings plainly say that Elias had come already as John the Baptist. Further more he did restore all things. If you look up the Greek iwhere Jesus says Elias shall restore all things, the word 'pas' for all actually can mean 'whosoever'. And I think you will find God right now in his temple reconstituting (restoring) whosoever will come. As far as the two olive trees go, I think you will find they are the two witnesses, The nation of Israel who have accepted Christ (the natural olive tree) and the gentiles who have accepted Christ (the wild olive tree or branch that has been grafted in) They are also represented as two candlesticks because they are two churches (lights to the world) not denominations. But then again, if one wants to look or wait for a new temple in old jerusalem thats okay with me. Howbeit, the Lord God dwells in temples not made with mens hands. Just a view to consider. no more... no less.

Love in Christ,
JM

Thank you, JM. I respect you viewpoint, concerning the two olive branches being nation Israel and the converted Gentiles. It is an aspect I hadn't thought about and I'll consider looking into the matter.

You will understand that I, for one, believe in the restoration of Israel that will come about in a series of world events as laid out in apocalyptical literature. So much that I take in reading about future events as laid out in such passages as Rev. 11, I take rather literally. (Though I'm also aware that there is a lot of imagery in Revelation as well that takes extensive study and prayer to interpret). I mean how do you explain the two bodies, laying out in the streets of Jerusalem if you interpret the two candlesticks as Israel and the Gentiles. I see it make sense only in a literalist view.

Furthermore, while the passage in Romans 11 state that Israel is the natural olive branch and the Gentiles are the wild branch, it speaks of this restoration of Israel in verse 25, after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This has not happened yet, according to verse 31, "Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy." God plans to restore Israel and Christ will establish his kingdom in Jerusalem. Why else is the land of Israel still so important to God if He still has use for it?

But I do agree that there is no Greek or Jew, that all are one in Christ, according to Ephesians 2:11-16. But since the majority of the Jews reject the notion of Christ being the Savior, I believe that God will demonstate this in another fashion, albeit real world events, as I've already laid out. The Messiah is still to come for them.

JosephM · 08-29-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Thank you, JM. I respect you viewpoint, concerning the two olive branches being nation Israel and the converted Gentiles. It is an aspect I hadn't thought about and I'll consider looking into the matter.

You will understand that I, for one, believe in the restoration of Israel that will come about in a series of world events as laid out in apocalyptical literature. So much that I take in reading about future events as laid out in such passages as Rev. 11, I take rather literally. (Though I'm also aware that there is a lot of imagery in Revelation as well that takes extensive study and prayer to interpret). I mean how do you explain the two bodies, laying out in the streets of Jerusalem if you interpret the two candlesticks as Israel and the Gentiles. I see it make sense only in a literalist view.

Furthermore, while the passage in Romans 11 state that Israel is the natural olive branch and the Gentiles are the wild branch, it speaks of this restoration of Israel in verse 25, after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This has not happened yet, according to verse 31, "Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy." God plans to restore Israel and Christ will establish his kingdom in Jerusalem. Why else is the land of Israel still so important to God if He still has use for it?

But I do agree that there is no Greek or Jew, that all are one in Christ, according to Ephesians 2:11-16. But since the majority of the Jews reject the notion of Christ being the Savior, I believe that God will demonstate this in another fashion, albeit real world events, as I've already laid out. The Messiah is still to come for them.

Greetings Dondi,
Thank you. What makes it rather difficult to understand in my view is that what is taught in theology college (4 years here) would agree with your assessment. The problem is basic to understanding the mystery of God which many are taught is of this world. One looks for God and his wisdom either in the physical or spiritual domain or both. Jesus is recorded saying "my kingdom is not of this world" and also "God is a spirit" and "the kingdom of God comes not with outward show" and "my words they are spirit and they are truth", "ye are in the world but ye are not of the world" therefor I find if one does not lock into what the world church system teachings as things appear to be but rather seeks the understanding beyond words, one will come to a different conclusion than the masses.

When one reads Chapter 11, one must ask oneself. What is an angel, what is a reed? What is the temple? , what is being measured and why? What is an altar? Who is it that worships therein? (Its not the physical temple in Old Jerusalem) All the representations were merely shadows of things to come. God could care less about man's buildings. (so to speak) God has more than 2 witnesses. Being raised from the dead happens all the time. Its just not what one visualizes with the mind. Physical death is not what is important as we know we will all physically die. Rain is not rain, fire is not fire, candles are not candles, stars are not stars, sackcloth is not sackcloth, blood is not blood a cloud is not a cloud etc.. They all are representative of spiritual things that are revealed only by God's spirit. Nevertheless, in my view, what is important is that ones focus is not distracted by the myriad of world events and prophecy which many are trying to figure out to the neglecting of that which is most important and alone is able to transform one into the image of Christ in which is hid all knowledge and wisdom that men/women are seeking in the first place. And that one thing that is able to do this is no other than unconditional love. Just a view to consider. no more no less....

Love and Peace,
JM

Dondi · 08-29-2007, 02:54 PM

I absolutely agree that God dwells in a temple not made with hands, and that all the physical aspects of the temple as a shadow of the true temple in heaven. I'm not disputing that at all. The scripture makes it clear that the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven in Rev 21, and this is that which you speak of, the spiritual temple were God abides, as restoration of Eden, where there is no more death, no more sorrow, and no more tears. It is coming, and in fact, those of us who are His have tasted this in our hearts, adnGod have forgiven us and cleansed us from sin.

However, you go back one chapter in Rev 19 and you will find that before the New Jerusalem comes down, Christ will reign 1000 years in the present, physical Jerusalem. Then immediately after this Satan is loosed to deceive the nations again. So this period of Christ's reign is not the final Jerusalem, for all things will not yet be restored, not so long a Satan has any power. Then Satan will be cast away. When that happens, God will create a new heavens and a new earth, one that will not see corruption or decay, you see. The whole entire environment of the earth will change, you see. It will be a spiritual re-creation of all things. Heaven will truly come down. The Edenic State will be restored.

BTW, I made some comments about the possible state of Eden in this thread that might lend an idea about my views.

JosephM · 08-29-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

(snip)
However, you go back one chapter in Rev 19 and you will find that before the New Jerusalem comes down, Christ will reign 1000 years in the present, physical Jerusalem. Then immediately after this Satan is loosed to deceive the nations again. So this period of Christ's reign is not the final Jerusalem, for all things will not yet be restored, not so long a Satan has any power. Then Satan will be cast away. When that happens, God will create a new heavens and a new earth, one that will not see corruption or decay, you see. The whole entire environment of the earth will change, you see. It will be a spiritual re-creation of all things. Heaven will truly come down. The Edenic State will be restored.

Actually the word translated for 1000 is chilioi,
a plural of uncertain affinity and was translated as one thousand but could be thousands, the period is uncertain. Secondly, people have been ruling and reining with Christ for some 2000 years already. That it is in physical Jerusalem is a conjecture. New Jerusalem is here already. Hebrews 12:22
But ye are come (present tense) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Perhaps, one is assuming that it is witnessed by all yet his "kingdom is not of this world" It is in this world but not of the world. Perhaps, people of God are looking so hard in the physical that they miss the spiritual. The flesh profiteth nothing. This physical will come and go but the spiritual is eternal as you know.

You are (present tense)a NEW creature in Christ Jesus. Old things have passed away (past tense) and ALL things have become New. This includes a New heaven and earth. So you see, Dondi, if what I am saying is true, of which I have no doubt, then just as the Pharasee missed the messiah so many of today are missing that which is before them because they cannot separate that which is spirit from that which is flesh. Nevertheless, I offer you no proof as it is self evident in the spirit and I would only hope that you are open enough to lay aside the building blocks that the church system has taught you and seek revelation directly from God allowing him to build the building, block by block from the foundation that he has already laid in you.

Just something to consider or toss out as you wish.
Love and Peace in Christ,
JM

Dondi · 08-29-2007, 03:50 PM

Spiritually, I'm a new creature in Christ. All things in my spirit are new, my old life has been crucifed with Christ, and the life I live now I live by faith in the Son of God. But I'm still waiting for that no more sorrow, no more tears, no more death, no more pain thing to kick in. The former things have obviously not been passed away yet. Which is why I'm still holding to my view that my physical substance will change at a future date.

JosephM · 08-29-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Spiritually, I'm a new creature in Christ. All things in my spirit are new, my old life has been crucifed with Christ, and the life I live now I live by faith in the Son of God. But I'm still waiting for that no more sorrow, no more tears, no more death, no more pain thing to kick in. The former things have obviously not been passed away yet. Which is why I'm still holding to my view that my physical substance will change at a future date.

Dondi,
It is my experience here that when one is in the spirit, there is no sorrow, tears, or death.... Just joy and peace beyond description. Perhaps there is a bit of confusion between living in the spirit and living in the flesh. One can go back and forth just as Peter did when one moment he heard directly from the Father and the next moment Jesus rebuked him for being in the flesh and not savoring the things of God. Just a view concerning your post to consider.
Love and Peace,
JM

JosephM · 08-29-2007, 05:13 PM

Also Dondi,

Note in Chapter 21 the gates of the city shall not be shut at all by day and there is no night there. and in Chapter 22 Rev. 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (They are open gates but all cannot enter even though no physical gate prevents them) .[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie (the world and physical life here). (There is still night and day outside the gates and people who cannot enter. Life goes on as usual) There is no night in the city because the glory of God lights it. (not a physical light) There is a physical world and a spiritual world and they both are present even now. The story continues.... and one can walk in and out of the gates of the city and the city is not limited by time and space and human sorrows or death. I can point it out but I can't take you in... only God can but if one does not believe it even possible to be so, he will create a veil through which he cannot see the gate to enter even now. Just some tidbits to discard or ponder.

Love and Peace,
JM

Dondi · 08-29-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephM

Dondi,
It is my experience here that when one is in the spirit, there is no sorrow, tears, or death.... Just joy and peace beyond description. Perhaps there is a bit of confusion between living in the spirit and living in the flesh. One can go back and forth just as Peter did when one moment he heard directly from the Father and the next moment Jesus rebuked him for being in the flesh and not savoring the things of God. Just a view concerning your post to consider.
Love and Peace,
JM

How does one implement this state of being in the spirit? Are you saying we can elevate to a point now where there is no more sorrow, no more tears, even no more death? Fact is, we are going to die, we are going to have sorrow in this life, we are going to feel pain. Oh, yes, there will be times when we are so in tune with the Spirit of God that we will experience joy, peace, but as long as we are here on this, it will not be perpetual. Besides, even if we ourselves are able to find perpetual bliss, there will be people around us, people that we love, that will still be suffering.

Or perhaps you've found some secret?

Dondi · 08-29-2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephM

Also Dondi,

Note in Chapter 21 the gates of the city shall not be shut at all by day and there is no night there. and in Chapter 22 Rev. 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (They are open gates but all cannot enter even though no physical gate prevents them) .[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie (the world and physical life here). (There is still night and day outside the gates and people who cannot enter. Life goes on as usual) There is no night in the city because the glory of God lights it. (not a physical light) There is a physical world and a spiritual world and they both are present even now. The story continues.... and one can walk in and out of the gates of the city and the city is not limited by time and space and human sorrows or death. I can point it out but I can't take you in... only God can but if one does not believe it even possible to be so, he will create a veil through which he cannot see the gate to enter even now. Just some tidbits to discard or ponder.

Love and Peace,
JM

Do you understand the Holiness of God? According to this verse, we must do the commandments of God. To what degree of obedience will allow us to enter? No one is perfect. Would 95% obedience be enough? Or how about 99%? Or 99.99% obedient? At what point will we have the right to enter?