The Transfiguration

[Gatekeeper]

Luke 9:28-36

28. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31. Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36. And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen


We've been studying this at our meetings, but I cannot wrap my mind around its meaning. Did Elias and Moses actually speak to Christ, or was it a vision placed in the minds of John, Peter, and James. I also question why these three did not write of this incident, when mathew, Mark, and Luke whom were not even present did.

James

[Thomas]

Hi Gatekeeper —

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Did Elias and Moses actually speak to Christ, or was it a vision placed in the minds of John, Peter, and James.

Depends if you're a Christian ... if yes, then yes (the event actually happened) ... if not then it can be explained away by all manner of means... perhaps it was a vision... Perhaps they just concocted the whole thing...

(My favourite 'explanation' being that the three were sleepy, and saw Jesus talking to two men, shrouded in a morning mist, lit up by the rays of a rising sun ... and immediately assumed that the two must be Moses and Elias — I mean, who else would you assume to be speaking to a teacher on a sunny, misty morning, but two people who had been dead for a millenia - it's an easy and understandable mistake to make - I do it all the time!)

+++

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

I also question why these three did not write of this incident, when Mathew, Mark, and Luke whom were not even present did.

Well, Mark wrote Peter's account of things ... Matthew's account presents Peter in not quite so self-depreciating a way as does Mark, James left no account we know of at all, and John, knowing Matthew, Mark and Luke had written of it, brought other events to light.

Here's an Orthodox reading of the event:
Contemplating the Christian Mysteries

In my studies we look not only at the Transfiguration, but its place in the Gospel, what came before, what comes after ...

Thomas

[Gatekeeper]

First, I'm not suggesting that it didn't happen. I am simply stating my ignorance of its meaning. If Elias and Moses did actually appear physically, what does it mean? Both apparently died, although there is no written account of Elias dying to my knowledge. What about Enoch, did he die as well, or did the whirlwind actually take him up to "Heaven". I think the two have some things in common.

When Peter suggested "pitching tents" for the three, (Christ, Moses, Elias)why was it considered an unreasonable idea if they were actually present.

What was the purpose for them speaking with Christ, as he already knew he was to be raised up, correct?

We've been on this for three weeks now, and have gotten nowhere. Were they visions placed by God, or did they appear physically and if the latter is true, where did they come from if they had been dead for a "Millenia"?


James

[LeoSalinas22]

hello, gatekeeper.

perhaps Elijah and Moses time traveled?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

. and immediately assumed that the two must be Moses and Elias — I mean, who else would you assume to be speaking to a teacher on a sunny, misty morning, but two people who had been dead for a millenia - it's an easy and understandable mistake to make - I do it all the time!)...In my studies we look not only at the Transfiguration, but its place in the Gospel, what came before, what comes after ...

I'm not saying the sun ray theory is correct but it is understandable....they were Jews, they've been setting a place for Elijah for ever...they still do...awaiting a visit...and who else would they expect Jesus to meet up with but Moses? There is some sense there to me...

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

When Peter suggested "pitching tents" for the three, (Christ, Moses, Elias)why was it considered an unreasonable idea if they were actually present.

We've been on this for three weeks now, and have gotten nowhere. Were they visions placed by God, or did they appear physically and if the latter is true, where did they come from if they had been dead for a "Millenia"?

For me when things are ununderstandable its time to dig deeper....I'm headed on the road and no access to dictionaries but look up the Jewish meanings of the names Jesus, Moses, Elias/Elijah, John, Peter, James (Love, Faith, and Wisdom? can't remember) and contemplate why these traits would see those traits...and what pitching a tent may mean...protection?

What I'm getting at is what literally happened? What is the context of the day? Societal, religiously? What figuratively happened? What metaphysically happened? Does anything like this happen in your life... ie does your faith love and wisdom need to see the traits of those three to grow?

Remember every place and person in the bible, every city, every well, had a meaning an interpretation behinds its name, it was tradition to explore that...

googled jewish name meanings


I'd also say the reason your group is studying and struggling is contained not in the literal understanding but the metaphysical understanding as it relates to your group....that is how it works for me....I always look as there is always a reason I stumble...

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

hello, gatekeeper.

perhaps Elijah and Moses time traveled?

sorry guys, i wasn't joking. i was actually being serious, but never mind. i know it sounds crazy but anything is possible if you do it in God's Name.

[Gatekeeper]

I knew you were serious, Leo. If this is the case where were they time travelling from? I assumed that they were both deceased, so timetravel seems a bit unreasonable to me, but I won't place limits on the power of God.

Wil, I'll have to do some research of the names, bro.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Luke 9:28-36
I also question why these three did not write of this incident, when mathew, Mark, and Luke whom were not even present did.

James

Didn't Mark write a lot of about Peter's experiences?

[LeoSalinas22]

where did they time travel from? does Alpha and Omega sound familiar? heaven, outer space, the infinite?... angels (messengers) have been visiting man since the beginning of creation. throughout the old testament angels are "men" or vice versa. how is that? look, i am not trying to claim that i know the answer, it is just that i cannot find anything else to explain the transfiguration as well. the only thing i know about is where in the letter of Jude, Michael and the devil fight for Mose's body. it stumps me. another thing, too. remember that Moses is dead. he returned to the dust of the earth but yet no where can i find in the scriptures that he went to heaven. the only ones that went to heaven are Enoch, Elijah, and some dude that Paul knew. so i guess we are on the same page. but time travel makes so much sense to me because we have to believe in our hearts that if God can raise the dead, then He can also time travel. well, that's just my opinion. remember, Christ Himself says that nothing is impossible with God...

[Gatekeeper]

Apparently so, pattimax. Still, I question the why when all three that were present have their own writings, ya know? It just seems a little odd to me is all.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

We've been studying this at our meetings, but I cannot wrap my mind around its meaning.

this is the son and his kingdom talking and witnessing with him about the cup he was to drink of fully. it is the past, present, and future for a moment in time as the kingdom of god is out of our time.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Apparently so, pattimax. Still, I question the why when all three that were present have their own writings, ya know? It just seems a little odd to me is all.

Oops, just noticed what I asked was answered prior.

As for why, possibly it needed to be in the gospels; but Peter just HAD to write about it, so John didn't. Only a guess.

[Thomas]

Hi Gatekeeper —

I wasn't making fun of you ... sorry if I gave that impression.

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

First, I'm not suggesting that it didn't happen. I am simply stating my ignorance of its meaning. If Elias and Moses did actually appear physically, what does it mean?

Elias signifies the prophets, Moses signifies the Law ... Mercy and Justice ... the Letter and the Spirit ... I think it can have many meanings, but all the meanings are secondary to the actuality of what happened ... Moses and Elias were there, and not in spirit only, nor even as a spirit, but as themselves, because everything exists in Him, and for Him, and through Him ... they appear each side of Christ because He called them there, to be seen by Peter, James and John ... it was for their benefit, so that they might believe. It was a visible (and material) sign for their benefit ... that's why He brought them with Him.

This stands in content with His other miracles, the feeding of the five thousand, the walking on the water ... He is doing what only God can do ... He is the fulfillment of Scripture ...

(The talk on St Maximus I gave the link for goes into some detail.)

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Both apparently died, although there is no written account of Elias dying to my knowledge. What about Enoch, did he die as well, or did the whirlwind actually take him up to "Heaven". I think the two have some things in common.

Yes they do.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

When Peter suggested "pitching tents" for the three, (Christ, Moses, Elias)why was it considered an unreasonable idea if they were actually present.

Because he was trying to organise Christ ... something happens, a fantastic event ... and immemdiately, Peter thinks "I know what to do!" His enthusiasm is understandable, but the truth is he does not know what to do, any more than he could have organised the presence of Elias and Moses ... better to have asked "what shall we do?" That's why Christ pushed him back with a serious rebuke ... if Christ had wanted tents, there would have been tents (as there was a tethered ass, when He wanted one). The lesson is how do we respond to the Presence of the Divine ... and how much do we assume what pleases us is what pleases God?

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

What was the purpose for them speaking with Christ, as he already knew he was to be raised up, correct?

Yes, He did, but it's obvious from the Gospels that for the Apostles, no matter how much He signalled what was going to happen, when it happened, they were staggered.

His miracles were proof for the times when they doubted. They might question the words, but what they had seen, they had seen.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

We've been on this for three weeks now, and have gotten nowhere. Were they visions placed by God, or did they appear physically and if the latter is true, where did they come from if they had been dead for a "Millenia"?

Because Jesus is the Lord of Life. He raised the dead, He brought Moses and Elias 'back' from their rest, because in life and in death, they 'belong' to Him, as we do.

One way is not to look for an answer beyond the immediate (although don't stop). Why did He bring them back? Because He could. Then why did He? To show the Apostles that He could. Why? Because He wanted them to know that He was not a prophet, but the fulfillment of prophecy (easy for anyone to say ... words alone would not convince).

So He brought them into the world, there and then, by which He meant "Look, I am the Lord of this world, and the next ... everything in heaven and earth, all that is, all that has been, all that will be, and all that can be ... has been given to me by my Father, and is mine, to dispose of as I will ... and my will is my Father's will ... and so must yours be ..."

That last bit is the bit Peter missed.

Thomas

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

hello, gatekeeper.

perhaps Elijah and Moses time traveled?

Maybe...just maybe "TIME" does not matter to God...

[BlaznFattyz]

that was the point i was making, at that moment, even though jesus was still on earth, that moment in time was the kingdom of god and one would have been looking at the past, present, and future all at once because god is outside our time. i believe in matthew somewhere he says some of them standing there with jesus will get a glimpse of the kingdom of god. time travel is a way to put it, i think more like manifest from one heavenly dimension to a temporal dimension. because before jesus said he would take the cup on earth, in heaven he already knew the ending--he is alpha and omega.