The Trinity, from the JW view. - Page 10

Thomas · 03-18-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

the trinity concept stems from ancient babylon, where the sun-god shamash, the moon god sin, and the star god ishtar were worshipped as a triad, Egypt followed the same pattern, worshipping osiris,isis,and horus. Assyrias chief god Asshuris is portrayed as having three heads.

Keep going, Mee — the more you write about the Trinity, the more you show how little you actually know about it, let alone offer a critique. Sorry Mee, but when it comes to this topic, you are an empty vessel.

The above deities are cosmological, and symbolise the forces and rhythms of nature.

Not what the Trinity does at all. There's not the slightest correspondence. You don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

following the same pattern, images are to be found in catholic churches depicting God as having three heads. oh dear

Reference please. What Catholic churches, where?

And whilst we're on the subject, how do you explain your founder using the symbol of the Egyptian sun god 'Ra' on the cover of his books, or the Masonic Knights Templar symbol of cross and crown on the cover of his magazine?

Thomas

mee · 03-20-2008, 05:36 PM

Historian Will Durant observed: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”

mee · 03-20-2008, 05:38 PM

In the preface to Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity, we read:

“If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism.

The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity.

Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”

mee · 03-20-2008, 05:40 PM

A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.”

And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”

mee · 03-20-2008, 05:43 PM

In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity:

“We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists.”

mee · 03-20-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Keep going, Mee

Thomas

ok then

‘Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.’—The Encyclopedia Americana

mee · 03-20-2008, 06:01 PM

Should You Believe in the Trinity?
Answers such questions as: What is the Trinity? Does the Bible teach it? Is Jesus Christ the Almighty God and part of the Trinity? What is the holy spirit, and how does it function.

this is a good online read if you are interested in knowing the truth about the trinity

mee · 03-20-2008, 06:09 PM

Having been created by God, Jesus is in a secondary position in time, power, and knowledge

Thomas · 03-20-2008, 08:47 PM

OK ... you quote a handful of sources, some of your own, who don't hold with the Doctrine of the Trinity.

I can quote shedloads who do, and furthermore I can demonstrate quite easily where the sources you quote are misguided, or mistaken ... so I advise you that is a fruitless course of action.

I can also quote first-hand sources with very anti-JW views, but out of respect have so far chosen not to do so.

I can also offer evidence that your translation of the Bible is deeply and profoundly flawed and self-serving, and not one of your translation committee approaches anything one might call 'scholarship' on the matter.

On the other hand I can quote numerous scholars who think the JW translation is risible.

And you still haven't explained why your organisation favours pagan symbols ...

... nor have you given me the location of the church or churches that show three-headed gods.

Thomas

Quahom1 · 03-21-2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Keep going, Mee — the more you write about the Trinity, the more you show how little you actually know about it, let alone offer a critique. Sorry Mee, but when it comes to this topic, you are an empty vessel.

The above deities are cosmological, and symbolise the forces and rhythms of nature.

Not what the Trinity does at all. There's not the slightest correspondence. You don't know what you're talking about.

Reference please. What Catholic churches, where?

And whilst we're on the subject, how do you explain your founder using the symbol of the Egyptian sun god 'Ra' on the cover of his books, or the Masonic Knights Templar symbol of cross and crown on the cover of his magazine?

Thomas

Not to mention that the Egyptians predated Babylon by oh say 1500 years...

Quahom1 · 03-21-2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

Having been created by God, Jesus is in a secondary position in time, power, and knowledge

No, actually He is one and the same with the Father. However as a "man" He willingly gave up His godhead in order to walk with man as a man and experience all that a man experiences, yet again to show us that we too could rise to the occasion, should we lean on God for support and encouragement. After rising, Jesus assumed His godhead and the transformation confirms it. He recloaked Himself in the mantle of the majestic...in short, Jesus was no longer a man, but once again, fully God. It is so spelled out in the New Testament, and Old Testament that you, like the Jew's find it too simple and therefore unbelievable. After all, God is much more complex than man, right?

lol

Quahom1 · 03-21-2008, 12:32 AM

Obviously the Trinity from a JW's perspective does not exist...that is the loss of some godly and heartfelt believing people. The irony here is that the blind attempt to lead the seeing, and call them "blind" when they choose not to follow...

mee · 03-21-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

And you still haven't explained why your organisation favours pagan symbols ...

Thomas

i am glad to say that Jehovahs witnesses worship in spirit and truth ,and dont need any visible symbols to bow down too.

and as Jesus said in JOHN 4 ;23-24

Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.

yes the father is looking for those interested in truth

and it is verrrry gooood .

mee · 03-21-2008, 05:45 PM

[quote=Quahom1;142821]Obviously the Trinity from a JW's perspective does not exist...

or even , the trinity is not inline with the bible, and Jehovahs witnesses are very focused on being inline with the bible .

mee · 03-21-2008, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, actually He is one and the same with the Father. However as a "man" He willingly gave up His godhead in order to walk with man as a man and experience all that a man experiences, yet again to show us that we too could rise to the occasion, should we lean on God for support and encouragement. After rising, Jesus assumed His godhead and the transformation confirms it. He recloaked Himself in the mantle of the majestic...in short, Jesus was no longer a man, but once again, fully God. It is so spelled out in the New Testament, and Old Testament that you, like the Jew's find it too simple and therefore unbelievable. After all, God is much more complex than man, right?

lol

Jesus is most certainly in unity with his father ,and he willingly left his heavenly life to be born as a man on the earth ,and after his father raised him , he sat at the right hand of God as the bible informs us .

He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.....1 peter 3;22

as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
hebrews 12.2

But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,
HEBREWS 11;12

Who is he that will condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us.ROMANS 8;34

I and the Father are one.

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.

JOHN 10;30.

And as he said to the Jews in the verse quoted below,

You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world." (John 8:23)

yes he lived in heaven with his father, he had a pre-human life in heaven with his father, he was from the realms above .

then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, PROVERBS 8;30

How was the Son occupied during the vast expanse of time before he came to earth?

Verse 30 tells us that he was beside God as "a master worker." What does that mean?

Colossians 1:16 explains: "By means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth . . . All other things have been created through him and for him."

So Jehovah, the Creator, worked through his Son, the Master Worker, to bring every other creation into existence—from the spirit creatures in the heavenly realm to the immense physical universe, to the earth with its wondrous variety of plant and animal life, to the pinnacle of earthly creation: humankind.

In some respects, we might liken this cooperation between Father and Son to that of an architect working with a builder, or contractor, who specializes in bringing the architect’s ingenious designs to reality.

When we are awed by any facet of creation, we are actually giving credit to the Great Architect. (Psalm 19:1)

However, we may also call to mind the long and happy collaboration between the Creator and his "master worker."

and it was God who resurrected Jesus , not Jesus himself.

But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.
ACTS 2;24

"God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest,
Acts 10;40