The Trinity, from the JW view.

[mee]

[quote=Quahom1;143147] and you have yourself one hell of a pickle to get out of.

quote]
what pickle would that be ? i feel no confusion at all i have left it all behind revelation 18;4

[Quahom1]

[quote=mee;143267]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

and you have yourself one hell of a pickle to get out of.

quote]
what pickle would that be ? i feel no confusion at all i have left it all behind revelation 18;4

Again, you pick a particular phrase without taking the whole into concept. At the risk of being rude, even idiots feel no confusion Mee. Since you are not an idiot, what is your excuse?

Your pickle (as you insist I repeat), "Fat chance. You aren't even supposed to be here on CR, let alone fellowshipping with other than JWs. We're all corrupt, and you have yourself one hell of a pickle to get out of."

You see, your attempt to play mind games doesn't work with people. And this is what you have to justify: 4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

What does this have to do with anything? It simply means don't follow the actions of the "whore". That means, no matter where one is, or lives, don't live like the whore of Babylon. It isn't Rome, or New York or any place, but a mentality. duh!~

Let's look at the rest of the Chapter: 1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[a] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'
11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more— 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.
14"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'
"Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.' " 21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth."

Man is fallen. Man thinks he is great. Man that is not part of the church Mee (the bride of Christ), is by default, the "whore". No place. Simply non-faithful. The whole world that thinks it can do without God, is Babylon. Think about it. We speak the world languages, and do commerce, argue about God's role in our lives, try to get rid of Him...Man who does not believe or accept God, simply used Him for own purpose (a whore). Earth is Babylon. Did you ever consider that?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Man thinks he is great.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth

And when he has a "command" such as this... It doesn't help his illusion fall, and it makes him feel like he is the most important thing on this sphere.... When even the fieldmouse or haddock, is of equal being. I couldn't find the version that worded it in the way that kind of made me think "hmmmmm " But it will do lol, Need to stop looking for masters and leadrs and those to rule over... just a thought to share.

-edit- as most of my thoughts go over heads, I am saying, we seem to also spoon feed ourselves how great we are.... When we are certainly not, mankind although special is a very VERY small part of the whole thing.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth

And when he has a "command" such as this... It doesn't help his illusion fall, and it makes him feel like he is the most important thing on this sphere.... When even the fieldmouse or haddock, is of equal being. I couldn't find the version that worded it in the way that kind of made me think "hmmmmm " But it will do lol, Need to stop looking for masters and leadrs and those to rule over... just a thought to share.

-edit- as most of my thoughts go over heads, I am saying, we seem to also spoon feed ourselves how great we are.... When we are certainly not, mankind although special is a very VERY small part of the whole thing.

Man, is the epitome of God's creation (according to scripture). But that does not mean Man should puff chest and bellow loudly. It means Man should stand in awe and wonder (and yes a bit of fear), of what the Lord has placed at Man's feet. Again, according to scripture, the entirety of the universe was made for God's greatest creation (sentient beings similar in design to Him). Whether that be humans alone, or others of similar sentience as well, remains to be seen. However, we got to take care of "home" first, eh? What you think is right in line with what others think here. Rest assured you aren't over your peers' heads in thought. More like you are among equals...

[mee]

[quote=Quahom1;143483]

Originally Posted by mee

Again, you pick a particular phrase without taking the whole into concept. At the risk of being rude, even idiots feel no confusion Mee. Since you are not an idiot, what is your excuse?

Your pickle (as you insist I repeat), "Fat chance. You aren't even supposed to be here on CR, let alone fellowshipping with other than JWs. We're all corrupt, and you have yourself one hell of a pickle to get out of."

You see, your attempt to play mind games doesn't work with people. And this is what you have to justify: 4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

What does this have to do with anything? It simply means don't follow the actions of the "whore". That means, no matter where one is, or lives, don't live like the whore of Babylon. It isn't Rome, or New York or any place, but a mentality. duh!~

Let's look at the rest of the Chapter: 1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[a] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'
11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more— 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.
14"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'
"Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.' " 21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth."

Man is fallen. Man thinks he is great. Man that is not part of the church Mee (the bride of Christ), is by default, the "whore". No place. Simply non-faithful. The whole world that thinks it can do without God, is Babylon. Think about it. We speak the world languages, and do commerce, argue about God's role in our lives, try to get rid of Him...Man who does not believe or accept God, simply used Him for own purpose (a whore). Earth is Babylon. Did you ever consider that?

Babylon the great spoken of in the book of revelation is the ,WORLD WIDE EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION.


and she has fallen because she no longer has any hold on Gods people.
Gods people have got out of her so she nolonger has any power over Gods people .

but she has not yet come to her end . but she will

[Dor]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste all,

What would the world be like if we took a hint from the likes of 17th, or Jesus, or Krishna, or Buddha and lived in the now, and expressed love for one anohter?

If we are determined to live on a 'my way or the highway' attitude we'll be traveling a lonely boring road.

peace.

wil

Wait a second Wil.
Didn't Jesus say just that in different words?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dor

Wait a second Wil.
Didn't Jesus say just that in different words?

namaste Dor,

Love seeing you around. Could it be a matter of perception? Which quote are you referring to?

And how do we get around love your enemy, love your neighbor? Unconditional love is just that isn't it?

peace bro,

wil

[Dream]

Ok, I'm finally caught up on this thread now. Hello!

Some things I'm hearing in this thread are a little extreme. Its extreme to tell someone God won't even hear their prayers if they don't believe in the trinity. It is possible to have perfectly correct doctrine and still miss the point. The greatest threat to a Christian's life is:

1. becoming idle and forgetting God or failing to appreciate what God provides.
2. causing someone to lose faith.
3. not errors in doctrine

[pattimax]

How about pure lies?

[Dor]

Originally Posted by wil

namaste Dor,

Love seeing you around. Could it be a matter of perception? Which quote are you referring to?

And how do we get around love your enemy, love your neighbor? Unconditional love is just that isn't it?

peace bro,

wil

Ok quotes.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Matthew 10:32-33 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."

Matthew 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Do I really need to continue or is that enough to start with? I can probably give you at least 5 more tomorrow or later tonight.

Ok so you are saying I have to condone everything to love people? No thats wrong.
I have to love people yes. Just cause I love people is exactly why I want to talk to them.
If I loved you I would not care at all.
God wants not 1 single person to perish and I want whatever he wants.

[Dream]

I am listening, Pattimax. If I intentionally lied in order to deceive you about God that would cut me off from God, however......If I am deceived about something, then I am blind to it. Sometimes its the blind leading the blind, such as if you are blind but pretend like you see and charge blind people for tours. On the other hand, it isn't a sin to be blind.

John 9:2-3 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Ok, the key is that this whole thing is about manifesting the works of God. The idea is that no flesh should boast before God. No one can say 'I am right, therefore you are wrong.' and expect the matter to be settled. That will never settle the matter, because God has made it so that men in their weakness are unable to create unity.

[pattimax]

I was referring to the fact that among other things, JW's say that Jesus died on a stake and not a cross.

Put that in your belief processor, and in your efforts to promote unity, I wouldn't do it blind.

[Dream]

The JW's may be insisting its a stake in order to further distinguish themselves from the Catholic Church when they are proselytizing. Are they saying that the word 'Cross' was mistranslated in the gospels? It certainly does say 'Cross', doesn't it? I don't know why it matters, since a wooden tree would scripturally satisfy prophecy.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Dream

I don't know why it matters, since a wooden tree would scripturally satisfy prophecy.

I'm not defending any position in this, but I think this is basically the JW POV.

Found this:

4716. stauros stow-ros' from the base of 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross.

4717. stauroo stow-ro'-o from 4716; to impale on the cross; figuratively, to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness:--crucify.

I noticed that while it does say stake or pole, it also says cross, particularly one used for execution.

I have heard compelling arguments for both sides, I don't personally see where it is a deal breaker either way. But that's only my opinion.

[mee]

The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896), says:


"There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape."—Pp. 23, 24; see also The Companion Bible (London, 1885), Appendix No. 162.




The Imperial Bible-Dictionary says, The Greek word for cross, [stau·ros´], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole."—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.


The Greek word rendered "cross" in many modern Bible versions ("torture stake" in NWT) is stau·ros´. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece.




Thus the weight of the evidence indicates that Jesus died on an upright stake and not on the traditional cross.


lets get things right inline with the original inspired words of God .




The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship."—Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753.




The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)


The cross in the form of the ‘Crux Ansata’ . . . was carried in the hands of the Egyptian priests and Pontiff kings as the symbol of their authority as priests of the Sun god and was called ‘the Sign of Life.’"—The Worship of the Dead (London, 1904), Colonel J. Garnier, p. 226.



It was not until about 300 years after Jesus’ death that some professed Christians promoted the idea that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed cross.



However, this view was based on tradition and a misuse of the Greek word stau·ros´. It is noteworthy that some ancient drawings depicting Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree.


so lets get back to what the bible really teaches and then we are more inline with truth