The Trinity, from the JW view.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I mean non-repenting cults and murderers, I was thinking aboutthe KKK when I wrote that.

OH! The white "knights"

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Sorry to pick on you, Dream, but your comment seems to echo what others are saying.

I think it is a better echo, than the echo of ostracism... (Sorry I couldn't think of a lighter word.... *cringes*)


Word masters/smiths feel free to put a better word in lol...

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Alex P

OH! The white "knights"

The ones with the pointy hats.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Alex P

I think it is a better echo, than the echo of ostracism... (Sorry I couldn't think of a lighter word.... *cringes*)

I'm on your side in this, Alex. I think Mee should be allowed to present his view unmolested by the others. Especially in a thread titled to that end.

It never ceases to amaze me...who preaches the word...and who lives the word.

As James tells us: "Be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only."

[17th Angel]

I thought the topic would have helped that, but I guess it makes people more curious and a kind of temptation to -have- to go in on the thread and give their 2 pence/cents Awesome bible quote I wanna do one too!!!

Luke 6:38 if you please!

"Give, and it shall be given to you. For whatever measure you deal out to others, it will be dealt to you in return."

Oh and that goes both ways

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Alex P

"Give, and it shall be given to you. For whatever measure you deal out to others, it will be dealt to you in return."

Oh and that goes both ways

[mee]

so then back to the cross
A more important issue for true Christians should be the propriety of venerating the instrument used to kill Jesus.

Whether it was an upright single torture stake, a cross, an arrow, a lance, or a knife, should such an instrument be used in worship?


oh , just remembered this thread is about the trinity

[mee]

OK back to the trinity


some may suggest that although Jesus did not spell out the Trinity doctrine, the apostle John did at 1 John 5:7, which, according to the King James Version, says: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


However, more modern versions omit this passage. Why?

The Catholic Jerusalem Bible explains in a footnote that this text is not found in any of the early Greek or the best Latin manuscripts of the Bible. It is spurious. It was added, no doubt, to try to support the Trinity.


oh dear , adding to the bible is a no no , all to try and support a doctrine of man. still it has been shown up as a falsehood and now it has been put right

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

OK back to the trinity


some may suggest that although Jesus did not spell out the Trinity doctrine, the apostle John did at 1 John 5:7, which, according to the King James Version, says: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


However, more modern versions omit this passage. Why?

The Catholic Jerusalem Bible explains in a footnote that this text is not found in any of the early Greek or the best Latin manuscripts of the Bible. It is spurious. It was added, no doubt, to try to support the Trinity.


oh dear , adding to the bible is a no no , all to try and support a doctrine of man. still it has been shown up as a falsehood and now it has been put right

Ok, I wont add one period to the bible:
DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: DEU 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

ISA 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. ISA 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

ISA 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

JOH 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one. JOH 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him
(The Jews knew that Jesus claim in vs. 30 was that "He was God". Ergo, they wanted to stone him, the appropriate scriptural punishment for such blasphemy.)

COL 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

ACT 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? ACT 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

EXO 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. EXO 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


You do the math...I don't have to. I already know the truth.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: DEU 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.


v/r

Q

VERY TRUE INDEED


"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. DEU 6;4


Or, "Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one [or, there is one Jehovah]." Lit., "Jehovah our God [is] Jehovah one." Heb., Yehwah´ ’Elo·heh´nu Yehwah´ ’e·chadh´.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

ISA 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. ISA 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

VERY TRUE INDEED



"YOU are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior." isaiah 43;10-11


"You are my witnesses." Heb., ’at·tem´ ‛e·dhai´, pl.; Lat., vos te´stes me´i.



"Even my servant," M(Heb., we‛av·di´, sing.)LXXVg; T(Aram.), we·‛av·dhi´ me·shi·cha’´, "even my servant, the anointed"; Sy, "servants."



Or, "and after me there came [or, will come] to be none."

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

ISA 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

l

YES besides him there is no God




This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God isaiah 44;6

"God." Heb., ’Elo·him´.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

JOH 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In [the] beginning the Word
(Or, "the Logos." Gr., ho lo´gos; Lat., Ver´bum; J17,18,22(Heb.), had·Da·var´.)was,


and the Word was with God,
Lit., "was toward the God." Gr., en pros ton The·on´; J17,18(Heb.), ha·yah´ ’eth ha·’Elo·him´.


and the Word was a god.
A god." Gr., the·os´, in contrast with ton The·on´, "the God," in the same sentence; J17,18(Heb.), we’·lo·him´, "and god."
2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.JOHN 1;1-3

Jesus A Godlike One; Divine

Joh 1:1—"and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)"

Gr., καὶ θεὸςη̉̃νὁ λόγος (kai the·os´ en ho lo´gos)

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one. JOH 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him
(The Jews knew that Jesus claim in vs. 30 was that "He was God". Ergo, they wanted to stone him, the appropriate scriptural punishment for such blasphemy.)

I and the Father are one. JOHN 10;30
Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.


But did not Jesus say on one occasion, "I and the Father are one"? (John 10:30) Yes, he did.

However, that statement does not even suggest a "Trinity," since he spoke of only two as being one, not three. Jesus was surely not contradicting the scriptures we have already read.

What he meant by this expression he himself made clear later when he prayed regarding his followers that "they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:22)
Jesus and his Father are "one" in that Jesus is in full harmony with his Father. And he prayed that all his followers might likewise be in harmony with his Father, with Jesus and with one another.



Jesus describes to the Jews ,his close relationship with his Father, explaining: "I and the Father are one." Since Jesus is on earth and his Father is in heaven, clearly he is not saying that he and his Father are literally, or physically, one. Rather, he means that they are one in purpose, that they are at unity.

Angered by Jesus’ words, the Jews pick up stones to kill him, even as they had earlier, during the Festival of Tabernacles, or Booths.

Courageously facing his would-be murderers, Jesus says: "I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?"


"We are stoning you, not for a fine work," they answer, "but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god." Since Jesus never claimed to be a god, why do the Jews say this?


Evidently it is because Jesus attributes to himself powers that they believe belong exclusively to God. For example, he just said of the "sheep," "I give them everlasting life," which is something no human can do. The Jews, however, overlook the fact that Jesus acknowledges receiving authority from his Father.

so yes they did make a wrong thought about Jesus .

Why do they not believe? Because of lack of evidence that Jesus is the Christ? No, but for the reason Jesus gives when he tells them: "You are none of my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father."


they were angry because Jesus told the truth about them .

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

COL 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.



Divine quality." Lit., "godship." Gr., the·o´te·tos; Lat., di·vi·ni·ta´tis.




Colossians

2:9:

KJ

reads: "In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, the·o´te·tos] bodily." (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in NE, RS, JB, NAB, Dy.) However, NW reads: "It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." (AT, We, and CKW read "God’s nature," instead of "Godhead." Compare 2 Peter 1:4.)

Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Colossians 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians?

Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is "the fullness" that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Colossians 1:19 (KJ, Dy) says that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it "pleased the Father" for this to be the case. NE says it was "by God’s own choice."


Consider the immediate context of Colossians 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions.


They are also told that in Christ "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" and are urged to "live in him" and to be "rooted and built up in him and established in the faith." (Verses 3, 6, 7) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious "fulness" dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the "fulness" that was in Christ made Christ God himself? Not according to Colossians 3:1, where Christ is said to be "seated at the right hand of God."—See KJ, Dy, TEV, NAB.





According to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the·o´tes (the nominative form, from which the·o´te·tos is derived) means "divinity, divine nature." (Oxford, 1968, p. 792) Being truly "divinity," or of "divine nature," does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share "humanity" or "human nature" makes them coequal or all the same age.