The Trinity, from the JW view.

[Dream]

I was referring to the court that would sit in judgment against that 'horn'. In order for a court to sit, it has to have all of the facts about the case. Maybe that's where the Information Age comes in. Whether it is the USA or some other entity is very difficult to assume. I don't know why you picked the USA and capitalism as the horn. We're not the ones who invented capitalism, and capitalism is really a direct result of democracy, which is championed by France. Besides, its an ancient Jewish scripture, so what does USA have to do with it? We're only 250 years old.

[Bishadi]

I was referring to the court that would sit in judgment against that 'horn'. In order for a court to sit, it has to have all of the facts about the case.

Name a court in the entire world that is governed by facts. OJ is free, and the Bush gang fires any who do not follow suit and then you have other places that allow religion to set the tone of the ‘court.’

Maybe that's where the Information Age comes in. Whether it is the

USA or some other entity is very difficult to assume. I don't know why you picked the USA and capitalism as the horn.

You just confirmed it. The form is now inert, that each individual can make sense of the methodology. That to accept a profit is normal. Hey.. it makes perfect sense.

What I must point out is it is quite uniform to the western ideals that the self and what the self can take (opportunities in business) is how any american can stand out and 'take a piece of the american dream.' ..... What this has done is make selfishness a norm and the single greatest cause to all 'evil' is man's selfishness. As every evil to exist is based from this exact cause.

We're not the ones who invented capitalism, and capitalism is really a direct result of democracy,

And every democratic society that ever existed had failed and even now it is failing again. The biggest problem with the model is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The separation of classes continues. The consolidation and stirring of goods, knowledge and opportunity continues to be governed by corporate America.

What most do not comprehend is that America (the US) was created by the very people of the period who were sick of the corruption of the politics of Britain, France and many of the rest. It is why ‘we the people’ was created but tell us all, are the tariffs, the sanctions and the isolating of people, the model of a peaceful world? No.

Is it good that the most powerful entities on the globe are the corporations? That the entities that govern every walk of life can change their priorities of which country to impose on and which receive benefits all based on what they have to offer in resources. Millions are dying because of hunger as certain companies reap the benefit and profits all the while filling their pockets rather than give a hoot about feeding the people. I am not a socialist nor lived in any region to observe this first hand, but I am capable of reading and seeking information to make my own opinions without having the media or some preacher telling me how it is.

Honesty and integrity govern my choices, thoughts and opinions and not a person, place or thing will ever tell me what to think.

I stand for the truth, period! And the funny part is, only by being truthful compassionate and of good intent will I ever survive past my physical life and you can see any religion for that fact.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Name a court in the entire world that is governed by facts.

One court that will judge with equity:

Psalm 98:6-9 With trumpets and the sound of the horn make a joyful noise before the King, the LORD! Let the sea roar, and all that fills it; the world and those who dwell in it! Let the floods clap their hands; let the hills sing for joy together before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.

Originally Posted by Bishadi

.....any american can stand out and 'take a piece of the american dream.' ..... What this has done is make selfishness a norm and the single greatest cause to all 'evil' is man's selfishness.
...
And every democratic society that ever existed had failed and even now it is failing again. The biggest problem with the model is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The separation of classes continues. The consolidation and stirring of goods, knowledge and opportunity continues to be governed by corporate America.
...
It is why ‘we the people’ was created but tell us all, are the tariffs, the sanctions and the isolating of people, the model of a peaceful world? No.
...
Millions are dying because of hunger......I am capable of reading and seeking information to make my own opinions without having the media or some preacher telling me how it is.
...
Honesty and integrity govern my choices, thoughts and opinions and not a person, place or thing will ever tell me what to think.
...
I stand for the truth, period! And the funny part is, only by being truthful compassionate and of good intent will I ever survive past my physical life and you can see any religion for that fact.

You are right that democratic societies, which are human governments, ultimately fail. The Bible talks about a judgment against all human government built upon factual historical evidence, however the onus is not merely on a specific kind of human government. Many things you brought up (love of money, honesty, etc) are concepts from the Bible. 'We the People' is just one more piece of evidence for the case file. It is actually a strong argument against your opinion that humanity can save itself through knowledge and popular goodness. The theory of improvement through education is one that has failed many times. The judgment of all the earth and 'Seas' is not really a secret but is basic Bible information, which you cannot afford to be unaware of.

[Bishadi]

The Bible talks about a judgment against all human government built upon factual historical evidence, however the onus is not merely on a specific kind of human government.

Humans worry me more than anything that exists since they are who created just about any thing, idea and all the definitions of evil.

Think about it. Please name one otherwise.

Then you say something about judgment based on factual historical data yet you believe with all your heart that any who confess to JC and believe he died for your sins, then all them records should be forgotten/forgiven… some of them church going folk, politicians ..ted haggard(s), give/take a bunch of money to/from the church hoping them records are no longer existing.

But we all know that isn’t possible, what is done exists. Nothing can change that.

Each and every act imposed to existence exists! And then them negative ones, like selfishly continuing a fib based on complacency, live and are affecting other people, adversely, all because someone wanted to remain to their own selfish needs and not care that everything they do is now existing.

Because they think all them records are gonna be forgiven.

Many things you brought up (love of money, honesty, etc) are concepts from the Bible. 'We the People' is just one more piece of evidence for the case file. It is actually a strong argument against your opinion that humanity can save itself through knowledge and popular goodness. The theory of improvement through education is one that has failed many times. The judgment of all the earth and 'Seas' is not really a secret but is basic Bible information, which you cannot afford to be unaware of.

Well knowledge in a form that is literally fact in the sense of empirically established has ever been completed. No religion or science is perfected. Philosophies come the closest, since human emotions are universal less the environmental influences. (cultures etc..) but no belief of a single theology has ever maintained a universal acceptability.

And never has a uniform teaching been established. For example: even now this country has difficulties (universal) with accepting the term ‘evolution.’

Please allow a few lines of knowledge to be read and not allow a belief to impede your understanding. A paradigm shift is on the horizon and it makes sense to at least take your shot at thinking on the concepts and if it works maintaining the teaching of compassion as well adds a little physical reality and comprehension… you make the choice but remember when you choose, lying to yourself will do more damage to a person than anything existing.

Lose the self preservation and use your heart….. the truth stands firm there.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Bushadi

Then you say something about judgment based on factual historical data yet you believe with all your heart that any who confess to JC and believe he died for your sins, then all them records should be forgotten/forgiven

Please allow a few lines of knowledge to be read and not allow a belief to impede your understanding. A paradigm shift is on the horizon and it makes sense to at least take your shot at thinking on the concepts and if it works maintaining the teaching of compassion as well adds a little physical reality and comprehension… you make the choice but remember when you choose, lying to yourself will do more damage to a person than anything existing.

We do not know each other, and it is ridiculous for you to assume what my point of view is when it comes to Jesus. As for your seminaries, their honor depends upon your knowledge. As for me, it is entirely possible I have pursued the exact same questions as you. Possibly some different ones.

It is plain that he wanted no one on Terminus capable of working out the future in advance. Seldon wanted us to proceed blindly -- and therefore correctly -- according to the law of mob psychology.....My idea had been to maintain balance of power, no more than that. It was only afterward that I thought I saw a pattern in events; but I've done my level best not to act on that knowledge." -- Salvor Hardin in Isaac Asimov's Foundation

[mee]

[quote=Dream;144547]

You are right that democratic societies, which are human governments, ultimately fail. The Bible talks about a judgment against all human government quote]

IT CERTAINLY DOES DANIEL 2;44




And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; daniel 2;44



And that heavenly kingdom is now well established inline with bible prophecy and chronology , its all happening in the time of the end ,the kingdom was set up in 1914 and Jesus recieved his kingship .

and its all inline with bible prophecy and chronolgy


and i have put my vote in along with a GREAT CROWD from all nations
revelation 7;9-10

[Dream]

I don't know, Mee. I can understand your scripture arguments, but not the 1914 ones. In fact, I'm here at this forum to gather information, so I appreciate your input. I thought we were instructed not to believe Jesus has returned unless it is obvious. Also, Bushadi brought up the paradox of vicarious atonement, which is a legitimate gripe against Christians. I thought for sure you would have tossed that doctrine, but you seem to agree to it at least partly. I've also got serious issues with a pre-existing Jesus. Are you flexible about what you mean by 'Pre-existing'? Jeremiah was 'Known' before he was born, but I thought that it was a figure of speech and treated similar statements about Jesus the same way.

[Bishadi]

Daniel 2:44

44`And in the days of these kings raise up doth the God of the heavens a kingdom that is not destroyed -- to the age, and its kingdom to another people is not left: it beateth small and endeth all these kingdoms, and it standeth to the age.

The truth exists permanently even as a rock within the mountain of knowledge.

That although some may accept a path, the only path that will exist forever is the truth.

As some suggest 'their' sect is the correct one, the ONE true form will allow each to be understood.

so when the truth is understood, then all the various religions will end....

there is no religion on this earth perfected; first truth!

No where will you find what you seek within a belief and if professed as true, then another lie is born.

So in order for the truth to be real and purely identified, then is must allow the knowledge of things to be understood.

Proverbs 14:5
A truthful witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies

[Dream]

Mee, that is, I'm gathering information but also pursuing the end of mesmerization, which I mentioned to Quahom in another thread.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

No.

That line is not about a coming person, but about the existing corruption of the most rude power on our globe, capitalism. That inbred concept that shares that the war of business is more important than the people.

That unifying horn is the USA. It is the power over all nations that our country uses that is damaging the globe as we stand.

it is when the people have knowledge equally that peace reign's everlasting.

remember, even as the prophecies were written, what most see are the interpretations and that is what confuses most.

Is it still surprising how many people will look for a scapegoat rather than to look in the mirror?

[Dream]

Ok, Bushadi, however you are only appealing to those who assume with you that the Bible has been destroyed by the discovery of evolutionary principles. You see it as a false witness. You are suggesting we extract similar principles from different religions and drop the religions themselves. Two religions I can think of that resulted from such attempts are Islam & Baha'i. Don't you think in light of this, that it would be best to start from scratch instead of trying to match vibes? There is no reconciling the Bible with other religions.

Take a look at Gerald Massey's attempts to combine & redefine, and compare them to your own. Its really the same thing that you're doing. It is your prerogative to try; but what makes you think you'll succeed? My opinion is that you're fighting God.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Proverbs 14:5
A truthful witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies

Indeed. Present company included?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Indeed. Present company included?

Hehehe! You caught the irony, too?

[Bishadi]

Is it still surprising how many people will look for a scapegoat rather than to look in the mirror?

‘That inbred concept’ …….. which is based on self reflection …. We each are quite capable of comprehending; taking (profit) from another. And a collective of this can cause far more adversity to existence, than any fictitious beast. That beast is within each as the ‘self’ can be quite the monster.

Ok, Bushadi, however you are only appealing to those who assume with you that the Bible has been destroyed by the discovery of evolutionary principles.

No that is an incorrect assumption. It is the idea that a word which evolved to describe a ‘phenomenon’ that was never understood ‘evolution’ sharing how each species developed over time, versus creation that most do not accept because of the requisite or idea of magical omnipotence; the leaders of the sects ‘created’ the words or idea of magic to describe that very phenomenon, evolution shares.

Man ‘created’ most everything you see as manmade things for example an airplane and it was by an evolution of knowledge that the engineers designed and built it.

All within the total; God.

But never a once has a man alive observed magic create anything as each have over the course of time, been describing each unknown since the beginning.

You see it as a false witness.

No, each statement is true if you remain honest and see each without the eyes of a faith. It is only that the information breaks the rules of complacent benchmarks. How do you think all knowledge evolved?

You are suggesting we extract similar principles from different religions and drop the religions themselves.

Name a religion that is perfect when in each they change the rules at random. i.e…. see the thread itself. The trinity is based on a concept, yet another JC based faith changed it again. But most do not know tha trinity is based from many religious interpretations and the Hindu has used that since 2k BC roughly. Or even the story of Noah had been written in the Samarian tablets.

So the religion of Christianity itself, was a collection of norms and warrants from many faiths.

Two religions I can think of that resulted from such attempts are Islam & Baha'i. Don't you think in light of this, that it would be best to start from scratch instead of trying to match vibes?

That is exactly what was done. From the base physics of mass and energy to revelations, a complete recast was revealed by observing how atoms and energy associate. A return to the basics is what shared the truth. Nothing was created or of ‘new’ material, just an observance to more of what already exists.

There is no reconciling the Bible with other religions.

quite an adverse statement when you and I have relatives from the time of Egypt and Rah, and even adam and eve, which means we each have relatives from each old religion since the beginning of time and to debate that is simply rude in itself.

Take a look at Gerald Massey's attempts to combine & redefine, and compare them to your own. Its really the same thing that you're doing. It is your prerogative to try; but what makes you think you'll succeed?

Each person has tried. This is the fact of each soul. That at some point each and every person has wanted to know what is true about life and death. As far as successfully completing the form; to address the religions has never been the desire but to address the facts and in a scientific parameter, asl math does not lie and since a doctor does more for my and your sustaining of physical life, it seems correct that in order for any pure form to exist, it must include the sciences. All that is really funny about the whole framework is that the change found to correct the sciences is the exact form or application to the established acknowledgement that ‘light’ governs the existence of life.

My opinion is that you're fighting God.

That is an assumption based on a religious set of logic. Where God exist in literature when in fact God exist as all things; the total. IN which each religion represents pretty much the same but can be understood literally, now!

God is taught as ‘unknowable’ but prayed to. Said to be of no word or physical description but images and names are placed. Said to have created all things but separate. Said to be one with all man, but elsewhere. All knowing, all combining, all love but still on a thrown imposing magic.

Yet to know the total as god, then each can trust his ‘time’ will allow the truth to exist and as each religion suggests; one day a man will walk that gives without any need of the self, simply to share the truth.

Where each remain equal is in honesty and integrity towards following the rules of nature (god). If a word mentioned is incorrect based on physical reality please share the false nature and revelation but without the guise of a faith, simply by the knowledge you know, feel and comprehend.

I stand that each is capable; give yourself a chance!

Knowledge is what combines thought to reality; be honest and reality can be understood. Be aware of the truth and know how to live forever in what you do.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Dream

I don't know, Mee. I can understand your scripture arguments, but not the 1914 ones. In fact, I'm here at this forum to gather information, so I appreciate your input. I thought we were instructed not to believe Jesus has returned unless it is obvious. Also, Bushadi brought up the paradox of vicarious atonement, which is a legitimate gripe against Christians. I thought for sure you would have tossed that doctrine, but you seem to agree to it at least partly. I've also got serious issues with a pre-existing Jesus. Are you flexible about what you mean by 'Pre-existing'? Jeremiah was 'Known' before he was born, but I thought that it was a figure of speech and treated similar statements about Jesus the same way.

1914 is a very significant date in bible prophecy and chronology. you are right to say that the bible says not to believe people if they try to say they are the christ , thats because Jesus will never come to the earth in flesh and blood again. but it was 1914 that Jesus arrived in kingdom power and was given great aurthority, but it was in heaven in the heavenly kingdom not on the earth that this happened . But Jesus is very busy directing a great preaching work on the earth , matthew 24;14


yes Jesus had a pre-human life in heaven with his father Jehovah before he was sent to the earth to be born out of a woman.

in fact he was the first-born of Jehovahs creation . he was the only one that was created by Jehovah alone , everything else was created through Jesus . but the power came from the most high Jehovah psalm 83;18