The Trinity, from the JW view.

[mee]

[quote=Dream;144637]I don't know, Mee. I can understand your scripture arguments, but not the 1914 ones. quote]

I have taken this following article from the book called WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALLY TEACH.







1914 A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.
How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.



When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.




In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?


Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

all the various religions will end....

Very true indeed , but it will be all false religion that will be destroyed , and it will be Gods thought that brings that about . Jehovah God can use the nations to acomplish his purpose , even though the nations are thinking it is their thought . it is no wonder that the command to Gods people in the book of revelation at revelation 18;4 tells his people to GET OUT OF HER .


THIS WORLDWIDE EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION called BABYLON THE GREAT nolonger has any hold on Gods people, she has fallen, but she is yet to be destroyed .




This harlot, whose activities have affected the lives of everyone on earth, is the one that was portrayed in vision to the apostle John.


She is an international harlot and her activities and her final destiny and execution at the hand of her lovers are clearly described in the record John made of the vision.


We read in the book of Revelation that John saw a woman, a harlot named Babylon the Great, riding a scarlet-colored beast.


He writes: "And he says to me: ‘The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.

And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.

For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.

And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.’"—Rev. 17:15-18.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Proverbs 14:5
A truthful witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies

very true indeed


A faithful witness is one that will not lie, but a false witness launches forth mere lies.proverbs 14;5

[Bishadi]

yes Jesus had a pre-human life in heaven with his father Jehovah before he was sent to the earth to be born out of a woman.

in fact he was

“in fact” based on a book of 1914……

the first-born of Jehovahs creation . he was the only one that was created by Jehovah alone

So Genesis is not a JW book and in your factual teachings, all that other creation stuff is not applicable

everything else was created through Jesus . but the power came from the most high Jehovah psalm 83;1

So I learned a new idea, today.

And FACT to you .. of course! Now I see where you got the handle “mee” as it is all about the ‘me’ in your eyes….. and who cares what any other peer has to offer as the ‘me’ that is you and all the followers of your sect are all that matters.

Very true indeed , but it will be all false religion that will be destroyed , and it will be Gods thought that brings that about .

Now you know god’s thoughts…..

Jehovah God can use the nations to acomplish his purpose ,

Then it can be assumed, the representation is incorrect as these last 96 years are probably the worst to mankind and existence (nature) than ever before.

even though the nations are thinking it is their thought .

And what nation do you reside…… ?

it is no wonder that the command to Gods people in the book of revelation at revelation 18;4 tells his people to GET OUT OF HER .

so

Rev 18:

2 </SPAN>and he did cry in might -- a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,
3because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom have all the nations drunk, and the kings of the earth with her did commit whoredom, and merchants of the earth from the power of her revel were made rich.
4And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her

so…..You live in Babylon.

THIS WORLDWIDE EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION called BABYLON THE GREAT nolonger has any hold on Gods people, she has fallen, but she is yet to be destroyed .

rev 18: 20 `Be glad over her, O heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets, because God did judge your judgment of her!'
21And one strong messenger did take up a stone as a great millstone, and did cast [it] to the sea, saying, `Thus with violence shall Babylon be cast, the great city, and may not be found any more at all; [/quote] And since this ‘has not’ occurred to the world as of yet, then the final truth has not yet been accepted upon the earth…. As when the people do know the truth, then they will be who judge the deception and deceivers of man’s inequities…… such as claiming 1914 was in fact the day of reckoning.
You are in that day right now oh claimer of the ‘mee me” as you state fact without knowing and profess lies as if you know, all based on selfishness to remain complacent when in ‘fact’ you really do not see what it true even when right in front of you.
You type words into a computer that was created by man and state words created by man but fail to observe God in the nature of things as if you know more than what God reveals each moment to exist…….

rev 19: 2 </SPAN>because true and righteous [are] His judgments, because He did judge the great whore who did corrupt the earth in her whoredom, and He did avenge the blood of His servants at her hand;'

As to state facts with lies are the whores to humanity…. And ‘we the people’ (within God) will judge them atrocities of selfishness.
As the true servant is not the spouting believers of misguided knowledge but the humble contributors to the evolution of knowledge; them who put themselves on the line maintaining honesty and integrity to what is true over the ideas of the elders whom suggest the path as if to know fact

rev 19:4 And fall down did the elders

And

rev 20:10</SPAN> and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

11And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works

according to their works……

so what have you done to contribute to mankind except retain complacency.
Each know without compassion and observance to their brother, we as a species could not exist….. so to suggest that our world now already has the truth into words suggests you have no faith that “god” has much more to reveal….. that you already know it all!

Be judged by your arrogance and the discrediting of your brothers and fathers just to keep you chest out as if to represent honor when it is your selfish isolation of being benefited with knowledge over and above each of us; that corrupts any integrity, humility or Love of God!

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Bushadi

Man ‘created’ most everything you see as manmade things for example an airplane and it was by an evolution of knowledge that the engineers designed and built it.

Ok, I'll think about that.

Originally Posted by Bushadi

Parenthesis added by Dream.

No, each statement is true if you remain honest and see each without the eyes of a faith. It is only that the information breaks the rules of complacent benchmarks. How do you think all knowledge evolved?

... Name a religion that is perfect when in each they change the rules at random.....Or even the story of Noah had been written in the Samarian tablets.....So the religion of Christianity itself, was a collection of norms and warrants from many faiths.

As far as successfully completing the form; to address the religions has never been the desire but to address the facts and in a scientific parameter,....it seems correct that in order for any pure form(of religion) to exist, it must include the sciences....

You know, Chris_Chinacat_Sunflower and Tao_Equus have been saying the same thing for a long time. I know what you mean by not looking at scripture through eyes of a faith, which is a restatement of your theme. You'd like facts and not somebody's word for things. True, most people would, and would prefer honesty and a government that allows them to be honest.

Let's differentiate the phrase 'Eyes of faith' from 'Eyes of a faith.' Having 'eyes of faith' is similar to having eyes for art. They do not make assumptions. They suspend disbelief or belief until the subject has been studied. I do not feel that the existence of a Noah-like story on Sumerian tablets, for instance, immediately implies that all of our scripture evolved from people's good ideas. I consider it to be an important fact and will be careful not to forget it. I am open to some good arguments about it and might research it myself, but thats all.

I am aware that lots of people have been trying very hard for a long time to explain the Bible as the result of an evolutionary process. It is argued that we are forced by the different names 'LORD' and 'God' to say the Bible text must have been composed from two different sources, which sounds ridiculous to me. A 100 year evolutionary process has resulted in a method to divide up Biblical texts, but it is no less ridiculous than the original assumption. The assumption is that the Bible is just too good not to have evolved.

[mee]

what does the Bible Say About God and Jesus?

IF PEOPLE were to read the Bible from cover to cover without any preconceived idea of a Trinity, would they arrive at such a concept on their own? Not at all.

What comes through very clearly to an impartial reader is that God alone is the Almighty, the Creator, separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God.

[Bishadi]

the Creator, separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God.

IF PEOPLE were to read the Bible from cover to cover without any preconceived idea of,

this.....

Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate to God

.....

would they arrive at such a concept on their own?

Not at all.

I am aware that lots of people have been trying very hard for a long time to explain the Bible as the result of an evolutionary process.

makes sense

Noah-like story on Sumerian tablets, for instance, immediately implies that all of our scripture evolved from people's good ideas. I consider it to be an important fact and will be careful not to forget it. I am open to some good arguments about it and might research it myself, but thats all.

Sometimes the truth continues even when something as simple as a story is shared.

Ok, I'll think about that.

Now that is my goal!

I can ask only for the consideration…… if it is good, then it may continue.

You have my life in your mind; will you share the knowledge of?

[mee]

Did

Jesus have a heavenly existence before he became a human?

Col. 1:15-17, RS: "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things."

John 17:5, RS: "[In prayer Jesus said:] Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made."

So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.
John 8;23




When two imperfect humans work closely together, they sometimes have a difficult time getting along.

Not so with Jehovah and his Son! The Son worked for aeons with the Father and was "glad before him all the time."



then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, PROVERBS 8;30

Yes, he delighted in his Father’s company, and the feeling was mutual. Naturally, the Son grew ever more like his Father, learning to imitate God’s qualities. No wonder, then, that the bond between Father and Son became so strong! It can rightly be called the oldest and strongest bond of love in the whole universe.




And God went on to say: "Let US make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.GENESIS 1;26


Yes he said US because he was talking to his son Jesus ,

Jesus had a pre-human life in the heavens before he was sent to the earth by his father ,


"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. JOHN 3;16-17

[Dream]

Just supposing you're right, Mee. Let us presume that Jesus existed before he was born -- that his birth was a sort of re-incarnation. That leaves some things to be explained, so what is your explanation of those things, difficult verses, etc?

[Bishadi]

Did

Jesus have a heavenly existence before he became a human?

All things are a part of the one.

Col. 1:15-17, RS: "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things."

In the image of the invisible God…. So he is not a man, but a life (light), ‘the first born’….. (let there be light)……. ‘He is before all things’ …. An idea, is simply a spark of ‘light’....… within the mind….. there is much more here but not yet.

John 17:5, RS: "[In prayer Jesus said:] Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made."

So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.
John 8;23

TO know the ‘total’ as all of it, then this makes sense as JC was asking to be One with existence as the conscious offers an ‘idea’ of being separate from existence…. Ever note what meditating does? It is a method of removing the self for experiencing existence as one with, rather than separate.

Each humbled person has asked God, a form of this, at some point in their life. Wanting to understand, WHY! Any person who experiences a loss of such depth, goes there.

It is one of them universal feeling.

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

The 2 scriptures are viewed as if literal but see the wisdom in a different light.

So since God is all of it, than each person has an opinion. If each opinion is dead on honest, then knowledge can evolve in pure truth. (god reveals) As knowledge evolves, if you know exactly what life is, then you can live forever by your choice.

17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. JOHN 3;16-17

So if every soul ever born is a son of the total, then neither each will judge, but the truth of the matter is judged in itself by all. And the only way each can understand what good and bad are in a true form, then knowledge must be made equal; the truth!

So we know the bible was written by man but each Good can have merit even as this scripture is often observed in a literal sense, but did you see the good of simply using your heart and ‘good’ in the eyes of the total. We are ONE, all of us, and we are all from the first ‘light,’ ………. Or JC himself … in the JW (mee me) sense of reasoning scripture. (opinion)


not too difficult if compassion and the true undertaking of the pursuit to know, is the choice...

[mee]

[quote=Dream;144739]Just supposing you're right, Mee. quote]

its not mee thats right, its the bible and what it teaches mee thats right .

mee likes to stick to what the bible REALLY teaches ,as all JEHOVAHS WITNESSES do especially when it comes to the most high JEHOVAH PSALM 83;18 and his son JESUS CHRIST John 3;16-17 the only way to take in knowledge of the true God JEHOVAH and his son JESUS CHRIST is in the bible JOHN 17;3 . And it is very good with no man made thoughts added on centuries later.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

We are ONE, all of us, and we are all from the first ‘light,’ ………. Or JC himself … in the JW (mee me) sense of reasoning scripture. (opinion)
..

to be one in purpose and in unity with the true God is what we should be striving to attain.

Jesus was in unity of purpose with his father and Jesus wants his followers to be in unity as well.


when Jesus said that he and his father were one in JOHN 10;30 he did not mean that he was God he meant he was in cooperation with God


I and the Father are one. john 10;30

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.


thats how his followers should be ,thats why Jesus said in john 17;21

in order that they may all be one
Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.
just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.


his followers are not God , and Jesus is not God . but unity and cooperation is the thing to aim for .

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by mee

to be one in purpose and in unity with the true God is what we should be striving to attain.

Jesus was in unity of purpose with his father and Jesus wants his followers to be in unity as well.

Makes sense but the opinion you represent is less than fare to reality.

mee likes to stick to what the bible REALLY teaches

Not sure about the book your reading. Seems what you suggest is new or continues to change.

the only way to take in knowledge of the true God JEHOVAH and his son JESUS CHRIST is in the bible JOHN 17;3 . And it is very good with no man made thoughts added on centuries later.

John 17: 3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;

That is unless you have a need to change things for your liking, mee me. A simple choice to isolate each rather than know in a physical fact, nothing in existence is separate from the other, it just seems that way to a human selfish on personal thoughts with complacent understanding.

For example you said

his followers are not God , and Jesus is not God . but unity and cooperation is the thing to aim for

Not sure what you are witnessing but the scriptures suggest a different opinion. So let’s be fare on the witness stand, as you have an oath to existence, rather than anyone here.

John 10: 33-38

33The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'

34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)

36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say -- Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?

37 if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me;

38 and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me [is] the Father, and I in Him.'

34…….. I agree….. each man can create a life…… since in 35 …’if them he call gods’ which suggest 34 is not a question. As well 35 ….. ‘unto the WORD of GOD came”…… meaning man wrote the words and created all the texts

38 … ‘believe that in me (is) the father, an I in Him” …. So in a living form, JC recognizes he is still ‘within god’…………. The total! That in reality as we stand we are ONE with God always.

Trying to help, and you make it real easy to show you…… so try a little.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Makes sense but the opinion you represent is less than fare to reality.

Namaste Bishadi,

Why do you think less than fair?

Why would we not want to reach for the stars?

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Bishadi,

Why do you think less than fair?

Why would we not want to reach for the stars?

Because to fare well, each must be honest with themselves first.

To reach the stars, each astronaut must know how to get there physically (scientifically) before boarding the rocket.

Or simply, to comprehend, physically believe or truly know existence, then the sciences or physical application must coexist or apply, literally... otherwise the term phenomena (magic) is still maintained with 'hope' .....


In other words before getting into the car, make sure you have the right keys. Otherwise nothing moves and you have to start over.