The Trinity, from the JW view.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Mee, it isn't good to be stuck on yourself, or narrow minded.

v/r

Q

I am glad to say that rather than being stuck on myself i am sticking to what the bible REALLY teaches. it is better than manmade thoughts, and sticking to what the bible REALLY teaches is a narrow gate.

In his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13, 14)


The Bible explicitly states that there is "one faith." (Ephesians 4:5) Clearly, many who are on the "broad" road have a religion. But they do not have the "one faith." Since there is only one true form of worship, those who desire to find that true faith will have to seek it out.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

mee likes to stick to what the bible REALLY teaches , and its not the trinity.




All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

2 timothy 3;16-17


mee feels completely equipped or fitted out for every good work.

and its all in the bible with no manmade doctrines like the trinity needed.

Nor does the bible teach that Jesus was not God/is not God. Only non-christians teach that. So, what are you? Christian or non-christian? Careful how you answer mee. All your well laid out plans and patients might just go up in smoke...

[mee]

[quote=Quahom1;148444]Nor does the bible teach that Jesus was not God/is not God.


Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) We should believe Jesus, for he surely knew the truth about his relationship to his Father.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nor does the bible teach that Jesus was not God/is not God. Only non-christians teach that. So, what are you? Christian or non-christian? Careful how you answer mee. All your well laid out plans and patients might just go up in smoke...

Q,

A philosopher once said...... (naughty naughty, very naughty lol......) Sorry.... A philosopher named Porphyry, (strongly agaisnt Christianity...) Questioned himself to look and research his question to himself simply was who is to blame? Jesus? Or the followers? He went on to show (basis of the NT) that jesus preached about another, not himself, that he also did not claim to be god. And he goes on to suggest that it was the followers who abandoned Jesus' teachings...... Now Q, sorry here is the main part.... Christianity... Is it based on the word and teachings of Jesus? Or is it simply ideas forged by the disciples in the generations after his death? (including todays times.) I think that is the best way to sort christianity from christendom.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nor does the bible teach that Jesus was not God/is not God. Only non-christians teach that. So, what are you? Christian or non-christian? Careful how you answer mee. All your well laid out plans and patients might just go up in smoke...

Originally Posted by mee

Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) We should believe Jesus, for he surely knew the truth about his relationship to his Father.

There are various viewpoints on the trinity in the Christian Faith. Some deny that it exists and honor Jesus as the Son of G!d, that in itself does not make them any less Christian, this argument has gone on since Jesus's time and is not by any means settled.

Mee points out many quotes that lead to their reasoning, as do others point out quotes that lead towards trinitarian reasoning.

If we wish to have a discussion, let us use the quote mee just provided. How do you interpret that?

And if we wish to discuss them all how about a couple lines before John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

As I read it Jesus is does not say I will return as the Holy Ghost, but the father will send the Holy Ghost. So this is A saying B will send C. In this statement how do you combine ABC as one or in the previous statement where A says B is greater than A how do you reconcile A<C = A=C?

The way I see it, is either discuss or agree to disagree, but tossing sand and names at each other is not beneficial.

[Ahanu]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nor does the bible teach that Jesus was not God/is not God. Only non-christians teach that. So, what are you? Christian or non-christian? Careful how you answer mee. All your well laid out plans and patients might just go up in smoke...

Un-uh! Baha'is teach that Jesus is God. Shall I quote Abdul-Baha?

[mee]

Originally Posted by wil

The way I see it, is either discuss or agree to disagree, but tossing sand and names at each other is not beneficial.

very true, it is much better to put over what the bible says , after all the bible is the aurthority for christians .



The Hebrew Scriptures are consistently clear in showing that there is but one Almighty God, the Creator of all things and the Most High, whose name is Jehovah. (Ge 17:1; Isa 45:18; Ps 83:18)


For that reason Moses could say to the nation of Israel: "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force." (De 6:4, 5)


The Christian Greek Scriptures do not contradict this teaching that had been accepted and believed by God’s servants for thousands of years, but instead they support it. (Mr 12:29; Ro 3:29, 30; 1Co 8:6; Eph 4:4-6; 1Ti 2:5)

Jesus Christ himself said, "The Father is greater than I am" and referred to the Father as his God, "the only true God." (Joh 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12)


On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; Joh 5:19; 8:42; 13:16)

Even after Jesus’ ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.—1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.

[wil]

Originally Posted by mee

very true, it is much better to put over what the bible says , after all the bible is the aurthority for christians .



The Hebrew Scriptures are consistently clear in showing that there is but one Almighty God, the Creator of all things and the Most High, whose name is Jehovah. (Ge 17:1; Isa 45:18; Ps 83:18)

Well, now no. The Hebrew Scriptures used many names, but not once Jehovah. Now those translations that thousands of years later into English of the Old Testament used the word Jehovah, and Elohem, but the Hebrew of the days they were written would not write or pronounce the name, this we know.

But we also know our Old testament, which is 2/3 of our bible, is not the entirety of the Hebrew Texts, nor in the same order, nor in the same translation and in actuality is about 1/20th of their works...So that wouild relegate our canonized Christian works to about 1/60th of the Hebrew...

Also interesting that while you disagree with the interpretation, translation of these texts, you do utilize the canon, the decision of what books are valid as set forth by the trinitarians, I've yet to completely wrap myself around that concept.

[mee]

Originally Posted by wil

Also interesting that while you disagree with the interpretation, translation of these texts, you do utilize the canon, the decision of what books are valid as set forth by the trinitarians, I've yet to completely wrap myself around that concept.

The canon of the Hebrew Scriptures, was well fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E., containing the same writings that we have today.


Canonicity of a book therefore does not rest in whole or in part on whether some council, committee, or community accepts or rejects it. The voice of such noninspired men is valuable only as witness to what God himself has already done through his accredited representatives.


From the time of Moses onward the canon of the Bible kept growing until John wrote his gospel and letters about A.D. 98. Whatever had been produced under inspiration up to any certain time was all that was needed for God’s approval and constituted God’s complete Word up to that time. It therefore also follows that the Bible came before the church, because when Jesus, the head and first one of the true church, came to earth, the Bible, the Hebrew Scriptures, were in existence.

The great Author of the Bible has also been its great Preserver. Regardless of what its enemies have tried to do to destroy it, be such enemies deists, agnostics, atheists, pagans or professed Christians, Jehovah God saw to it that his promise would be fulfilled that stated:


"The vegetation becomes withered, and the flower falls off, but the word spoken by Jehovah endures forever." Yes, the Bible is NOT a Catholic book! It is God’s Book.—1 Pet. 1:24, 25,

[wil]

Originally Posted by mee

From the time of Moses onward the canon of the Bible kept growing until John wrote his gospel and letters about A.D. 98. Whatever had been produced under inspiration up to any certain time was all that was needed for God’s approval and constituted God’s complete Word up to that time. It therefore also follows that the Bible came before the church, because when Jesus, the head and first one of the true church, came to earth, the Bible, the Hebrew Scriptures, were in existence.

So, again, somehow G!d approved the Catholic Church to canonize the New Testament Scriptures and rearrange the Old Testament and ignore the rest of the Talmud and ignore the other books that were arround. So JW's accept that the Catholics create and order the bible as the will of G!d to do so but not their Trinitarian interpretation.

How is this line drawn?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Ahanu

Un-uh! Baha'is teach that Jesus is God. Shall I quote Abdul-Baha?

From what I understand, Baha'is is a conglomeration of monotheistic believes alligned with the Judeac/Islamic/Christian bent. To say Jesus is God is good and correct. Accepting Christ's gift of salvation is a different matter altogether. Is that what Baha'ias believe as well?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Q,

A philosopher once said...... (naughty naughty, very naughty lol......) Sorry.... A philosopher named Porphyry, (strongly agaisnt Christianity...) Questioned himself to look and research his question to himself simply was who is to blame? Jesus? Or the followers? He went on to show (basis of the NT) that jesus preached about another, not himself, that he also did not claim to be god. And he goes on to suggest that it was the followers who abandoned Jesus' teachings...... Now Q, sorry here is the main part.... Christianity... Is it based on the word and teachings of Jesus? Or is it simply ideas forged by the disciples in the generations after his death? (including todays times.) I think that is the best way to sort christianity from christendom.

Every "house" has to have a foundation. And every foundation has to have a base. And every base and foundation has to be envisioned by an architect. Scripture calls Peter the "Rock" and the disciples the beginings of the foundation, but Jesus had the vision and gave the faithful the design to pattern after.

What are your thoughts?

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by wil

So, again, somehow G!d approved the Catholic Church to canonize the New Testament Scriptures and rearrange the Old Testament and ignore the rest of the Talmud and ignore the other books that were arround. So JW's accept that the Catholics create and order the bible as the will of G!d to do so but not their Trinitarian interpretation.

How is this line drawn?

the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E. This canon did not include apocryphal writings included in some Bible editions, but listed just the thirty-nine books generally accepted and appearing in the majority of modern-day Bibles. That canon was the one accepted by Jesus and the early Christian church, and from which Jesus and his disciples quoted as authority, as God’s Word.—John 17:17.

[Quahom1]

[quote=mee;148472]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nor does the bible teach that Jesus was not God/is not God.


Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) We should believe Jesus, for he surely knew the truth about his relationship to his Father.

Scripture also specifically points out the duality of Jesus as both man and God. But upon being born of woman, Jesus obediently gave up the Divine authority to learn and walk and submit to the Father, as a man. He didn't have to, he chose to. Philippians 2 5-8

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. "

If Jesus gave up his divinity (equality) with God, logically the argument must got that he had equality with God in the first place.
(The Greek word here for "equality' ' comes from the root word isos, used in geometry to describe the isosceles triangle with its two equal sides, or in a special case, an equilateral triangle (which is an isosceles triangle with three equal sides, and three equal angles).

Philippians also points out the Jesus existed as God (Phil 2 6) and as bond servant (Phil 2 7) "being found in the appearance of a man".

God made man.

Jesus did not "grasp" or hold on to his divinity, while walking the earth as a man. Instead he lived in obedience and submission. And in that same obedience and submission paid the ultimate price for all of mankind. This perfect man gave his human life for remission of our sins (faults, out of balance with God, what ever you want to call it).

When he rose from the dead, he was no longer man. He was fully God again with the equality and authority of the Father and the Spirit. In short, Jesus once again took up his divinity.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth century B.C.E. This canon did not include apocryphal writings included in some Bible editions, but listed just the thirty-nine books generally accepted and appearing in the majority of modern-day Bibles. That canon was the one accepted by Jesus and the early Christian church, and from which Jesus and his disciples quoted as authority, as God’s Word.—John 17:17.

And that is where Hebrew Scriptures stopped (pre-messiahah). The new testament is post messiahah, something the Hebrews of the day (and to much extent today), were and are still waiting for.

To disavow or dismiss the new testament is to state that Jesus is irrelevent, a liar or insane. To accept Jesus but dimiss the new testament is an oxymoron. One would have no reference from which to found "Christianity" on.

The "bibliographica" that the early church put together, is the foundation of Christianity at base. To exclaim now that they didn't get it right, is to declare that all Christians up to the last 150 years, are lost. That is shear arrogance on the human that thinks that. Because a God who came deliberately to pay the price (or a God who sent his only begotten Son), for our sins would surely not allow 2000 years worth of human souls to parish, when they did everything they could to walk in faith and trust and the promise that the old testament God promised and the new testament God delivered, based on the "book" that was/is to be man's guide home back to that God, is in error and always has been?

That is one hell of a stretch...